Class D amps sound inferior?

[tony caskey]

Can we PLEASE GET PAST THIS???

The class D amps are proven by the experience of years and thousands of gigs and concerts. I don't freakin' care if you have imaginary bogeymen in your head about Class D, there are thousands of really good musicians who use them and are delighted with them.

If you don't like them for real or imagined reasons, DON'T USE THEM!!

If (like me) you welcome them and are grateful for the versatility, low weight great sound they offer, USE THEM!

But stop asking the same question of others when the track record of Class D amps is well established and your ears are the only ones which count for you.

my daughter calls these click bate! i tried them when they first came out "mark bass", no it did not sound like a tube amp but neither did my GK! fast forward bought a 2 year old KB 500 D 1-12 hartke. i liked the sound well enough to purchase a high end amp with the not Chinese components, Dark Glass 900, with GK neo1-15 II and neo 2-12 III or heritage 8-10, used single 15 mostly but sounded glorious with onboard distortion through SVT cab. i loved my tube amps but at 53, did i mention it was less than 10 lbs, with footswitch

 

[StatesideRambler]

What level of distortion is audible? I think 5% was once discussed on these forums.
I think much of the above discussion is akin to spitting in the ocean. It makes a difference that might be measured but never realized.

We tend to use hi-fi thinking WRT distortion measurement but the distinction that’s so often missed is that hi-fi is reproducing sound while we are creating and manipulating sound. Big difference in purpose therefore different thinking, design and standards. Years ago, decades ago, in a Popular Electronics article by Jack Darr or maybe in one of his books, he referred to 5% total harmonic distortion as a [sort of] benchmark for “undistorted” musical instrument amplifiers pointing out that it was necessarily different from hi-fi.

Times have changed a lot but we are still creating sounds and clean, undistorted sinusoidal waveforms are useful but musically uninteresting.

Can we PLEASE GET PAST THIS???

Are you new to online forums? The collective “we” will never “get past” whatever the topic of a thread is.

 

[BlueTalon]

Pretty sure the local lakefront outdoor venue (~2-3000 capacity) is still using a rack of Carver amps for mains and monitors.

As long as they never have to move it, why not?

 

[agedhorse]

T

As long as they never have to move it, why not?

Those little fans and how they were powered (thinking the PM-1.5) was a challenge.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

As long as they never have to move it, why not?

They are moved, but it's ~50' and they're in racks with wheels.

 

[BlueTalon]

T

Those little fans and how they were powered (thinking the PM-1.5) was a challenge.

Ah, I misread Carver, thought it was Crown. Actually, my mind did something like this: "C.... = heavy."

 

[dponbass]

Can we PLEASE GET PAST THIS???

The class D amps are proven by the experience of years and thousands of gigs and concerts. I don't freakin' care if you have imaginary bogeymen in your head about Class D, there are thousands of really good musicians who use them and are delighted with them.

If you don't like them for real or imagined reasons, DON'T USE THEM!!

If (like me) you welcome them and are grateful for the versatility, low weight great sound they offer, USE THEM!

But stop asking the same question of others when the track record of Class D amps is well established and your ears are the only ones which count for you.

Forgive me, what was the question?

 

[Jim C]

Times have changed a lot but we are still creating sounds and clean, undistorted sinusoidal waveforms are useful but musically uninteresting.

Most players I know use some sort of distortion devise like a pedal or preamp.

Very much disagree. YMMV
I like a studio clean bass tone. I have no use for distortion other than just a very light touch of what many called "additional harmonics" whatever that means. I want a clean, solid, foundation for others to build on.

Not taking a shot at any bass player that likes distortion, and this also speaks to the threads that claim you MUST HAVE a high end tube direct box. You do not. You're either a player or you aren't. You either are in a good studio or you aren't. And most importantly, your group is working on what hopefully will be a very popular piece of music.

Many of the greatest pop / R&B / straight ahead rock records ever recorded were through a standard transformer direct box right into the console. There might be 30% of a mic'd track for air or size, but it too was typically pretty clean. I remember when the Countryman DI box came out which was a huge deal back in the day and I still like the old Sescom DI boxes (both active and passive but always with a Jenson transformer wound to their specs) which no one talks about.

Think about some of your favorite recordings from 1950 - 2000 and chances are there are many clean bass tones. Sure worked for JPJ and Sir Paul (with a few exceptions). IMO.

And kids listen to MP3 files on ear buds or Dr. Beats so I am in the minority about fidelity!

 

[Guitalia]

Bass amp distortion numbers are pretty meaningless. It is more about slam and compression. Most players I know use some sort of distortion devise like a pedal or preamp.

And yet amp manufacturers still refuse to publish their slam measurements. What are they hiding???!!?

 

[swarfrat]

Thank goodness they dont. Watts are bad enough. 2kw on a 3a fuse....

And count me in the camp of people who have little use for bass distortion. It robs slam.

 

[agedhorse]

If you understood how fuse sizing works for audio amps, you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement (though I realize that you exaggerated).

 

[Pilgrim]

Forgive me, what was the question?

Trust me, it was nothing which wasn't totally redundant or superfluous.

 

[byacey]

T

Those little fans and how they were powered (thinking the PM-1.5) was a challenge.

Those fans and motors were an ill conceived idea. They look like something from a meccano set. The PM1200s used the same fans as the 1.5

I retrofit a mini boxer fan after the bushings wore out in some of my amps.

 

[Standalone]

I prefer my Class A/B GK’s. I haven’t played a Class D that’s responded in the same way.

 

[swarfrat]

If you understood how fuse sizing works for audio amps, you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement (though I realize that you exaggerated).

Yes, I was exaggerating. Actually the Headrush 108 (which does claim 2kw) actually has a 10A fuse, however it clips around 108 db @ about a meter, and I expect it's probably excursion limited to about 50W-70W depending on where the hump is. I almost didn't buy it because of spec inflation - but at the end of the day, $200 for a box that small and loud enough for my needs won. (I use it for guitar. It claims bass support, which it could probably do at coffe house levels) - I have to notch the heck out of it though as the resonant peak is really woofy around E-F#.

I'm sure the thing probably can supply 2kw into a screwdriver across the outputs for a couple milliseconds.

 

[agedhorse]

I prefer my Class A/B GK’s. I haven’t played a Class D that’s responded in the same way.

Have you tried the new GK Legacy or Fusion S amps?

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, I was exaggerating. Actually the Headrush 108 (which does claim 2kw) actually has a 10A fuse, however it clips around 108 db @ about a meter, and I expect it's probably excursion limited to about 50W-70W depending on where the hump is. I almost didn't buy it because of spec inflation - but at the end of the day, $200 for a box that small and loud enough for my needs won. (I use it for guitar. It claims bass support, which it could probably do at coffe house levels) - I have to notch the heck out of it though as the resonant peak is really woofy around E-F#.

I'm sure the thing probably can supply 2kw into a screwdriver across the outputs for a couple milliseconds.

Ok, so perhaps in this instance I can help you understand what you are seeing...

First the rated power is 2000 watts PEAK, which is the same as 1000 watts RMS.

Second, this is a powered cabinet, and there is additional limiting type processing that does both excursion and thermal limiting of some type so the amp can not, does not and should not deliver continuous power at that level (or the drivers wouldn't survive).

So, the calculations that would apply are taking the 1000 watts continuous and de-rating the duty cycle (crest factor) by say at least 6dB so the maximum continuous power that the amp would be called upon is 1000 watts RMS/6dB = 1000/4 = 250 watts continuous.

Now, the minimum size fuse to support this is 250 watts x 1A/120W x 1/power conversion efficiency (typically ~80% in an SMPS/class D system) x 1.25 (typical margin) = 250W x 1A/120W x 1/0.8 x 1.25 = 3.25A

So, part of the confusion is that the audio power is not specified in RMS metrics but the AC current is, part is that you must consider the maximum duty cycle that the amp will see, and part of it is that you have to factor in conversion efficiency and margins.

 

[Dp1363]

I was a “if it doesn’t have tubes and weigh 40 lbs it ain’t good” guy.....
then I bought a Mesa D800. just my humble opinion, but a quality class D is lacking nothing in my book.
this little amp embarrasses anything else I have owned. It makes my SVT3 pro look like a practice amp. Nothing but love for them. Plus, you can carry it under your arm. Lol

Try a D800+. Even better.

 

[javi_bassist]

I was a “if it doesn’t have tubes and weigh 40 lbs it ain’t good” guy.....
then I bought a Mesa D800. just my humble opinion, but a quality class D is lacking nothing in my book.
this little amp embarrasses anything else I have owned. It makes my SVT3 pro look like a practice amp. Nothing but love for them. Plus, you can carry it under your arm. Lol

Mesa makes probably some of the best bass amps that you can find. Many artists also use Aguilar Tonehammers. There are a lot of really good Class D amps. And I used to think that way too (very influenced by my bass teacher some years back. He still thinks that way, even though he mainly use now a Tonehammer with a SL cab). But then I switched my A/B bass amp for my Class D and I never looked back. I'm really happy with my lightweight little amp.

 

[Al Kraft]

Have you tried the new GK Legacy or Fusion S amps?

I've only played the MB and MBF series but they do not do that "hitting the rails" thing that the class AB RB heads do, at least not as convincingly IME. That's not a area of operation I use when I play, so missing that artifact is not an issue for me. I think there was some attempt to build that kind of grind into the class D designs, but no one I know has ever felt it was quite the same as the class AB delivers.