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Class D amps sound inferior?

I’ll admit, I was at first skeptical of Class D amps, but while to this day I still play Class AB amps, that’s really only because since 2009, my main bass amp has been a Mesa/Boogie Walkabout Scout 12 combo, and the 300 W into 4 Ohms Walkabout head is only 13 lbs. Moving to the newer WD-800 would only save me a few pounds, and I don’t actually need the extra 500 Watts.

That being said, I do plan to someday upgrade to a Subway series rig. It’s just not a huge priority, since the Walkabout is more than enough for my current needs.
 
Otherwise, by your definition, every square wave signal would be PWM (which of course it's not).

Yes, a square wave can be considered PWM with a constant frequency. There is no difference in the signal itself - it's either on or off, high or low - there is no analog component outside of the pulse width. I'm surprised that a fellow engineer doesn't know this.

The point is that PWM (Class D) is digital, not that all digital signals are PWM.
 
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Weird. "Mine" was in a rehearsal studio and not a particularly friendly one. The amp had its share of battle scars from being dragged around and dropped by the maintenance people running the place.
When the place closed, I think the Databass was the only amp they had that still worked. lol!

But I can understand blowing speakers on them. The EQ controls on that amp could make it really bassy. I just never ran it that way.

When I got mine, I was in a brutally loud band and my Peavey Combo 300 wasn't cutting it. At the time, the DataBass appeared to be the loudest combo amp on the market. This was pre-internet, so all I had to go by was local stores and guitar magazines. It was loud, but there was just a huge mismatch between the amp and the speakers--the speaker blowing issue was quite common and folks have talked about it on this forum. I moved to a Peavey Alpha Bass tube head/115 setup that was too quiet, and then on to a Hartke 3000 plus a Sunn 610 cab which finally sorted the volume issue. I now have a Fender Rumble 500 and it's the best amp I've ever owned and its one of those things where you see clear great-leap-forward technological improvement. Not sure I'd ever mess around with tube gear now unless it was for studio work, or I became a rock star, which ain't happening.
 
“A class-D amplifier or switching amplifier is an electronic amplifier in which the amplifying devices (transistors, usually MOSFETs) operate as electronic switches, and not as linear gain devices as in other amplifiers.“
From Google.


As someone else said, it’s best just to use your ears. Personally, I like the signal breakup of a tube amp for bass guitar, but prefer solid state designs for upright bass.
While I think it’s important to understand your equipment (input sensitivity, ohm ratings, power handling/RMS, etc), it’s easy to lose focus on what the end goal might be that you’re looking for once you get bogged down in different amp design concepts.
Hmmmm. You see, any time you have an electronic switch you are in a binary scenario. A transistor takes an input signal, and switches it between one of two outputs. If those outputs are ON and OFF, then you are clearly in a digital realm.... and even if it’s doing the job of amplifying, it is still functioning as a binary switch.

A digital computer is nothing other than millions of transistors, all making binary choices.

Therefore, to state that a class D amp is not digital is, to some degree, inaccurate. Indeed, it is functioning in binary fashion just like any computer.

That said, I cannot agree with you more. It ain’t about specs or technology. The ears are the final arbiter of what’s good musically and what’s not.
 
Back in the early 90s I bought a Carver Class D power amp. It was light and it was loud however the bass sounded too mushy for my taste and still preferred the bass sound of my Crest power-amp, although the Crest was twice the weight of the Carver. That experience left a bad taste for anything Class D. I think the current crop of Class D amps have improved a lot. So much so that when I compare my new Class D amp to my older heavier amps the tone difference is very minimal and considering the weight savings worth the minimal difference. However one opinion still hasn't changed. If you are driving subs and need to drive a set of speakers at 2 ohms Class D will still struggle or just shut down compared to my Crest. My Crest CA9 doesn't even break a sweat in this type of setting. That's all.
 
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Sure glad the term digital has been misunderstood and corrupted so much since receiving my degree.

I wonder how we invented such technology without understanding what it all means.

This thread is a good example of what happens when folks do not understand technology, they pervert the meaning.

Digital has to do with state and not time. Time domain events can be CONVERTED to state domain events, which is one of the functions an AD converter performs. Whenever the information is contained solely within the time domain portion of the signal, it’s a non-linear analog signal.
 
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Back in the early 90s I bought a Carver Class D power amp. It was light and it was loud however the bass sounded too mushy for my taste and still preferred the bass sound of my Crest power-amp, although the Crest was twice the weight of the Carver. That experience left a bad taste for anything Class D. I think the current crop of Class D amps have improved a lot. So much so that when I compare my new Class D amp to my older heavier amps the tone difference is very minimal and considering the weight savings worth the minimal difference. However one opinion still hasn't changed. If you are driving subs and need to drive a set of speakers at 2 ohms Class D will still struggle or just shut down compared to my Crest. My Crest CA9 doesn't even break a sweat in this type of setting. That's all.
To carry on my criticism of not understanding technology and drawing incorrect conclusions, Carver never offered a class D amplifier, therefore your amp couldn’t possibly be class D. In fact, the Carver amps were either class AB or class G/H (depending on rated output), exactly the same as the Crest CA amplifiers.

The difference is that the Carver used a phase controlled line frequency power supply which shrank it’s size.
 
I once had a chance to compare "cheap" Class D with old school reference i.e a Crown XLS 1500
against a pair of bridged Crown Macrotech 1200 which had just been serviced and was back to factory spec.
Input was my Mike Lull M5V through an Aguilar 659 tube pre-amp and with the Crown's feeding a pair
of Aguilar GS212.
To my own immense surprise I preferred the XLS1500.
So lesson is/was, trust your ears.
 
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Sure glad the term digital has been misunderstood and corrupted so much since receiving my degree.

I wonder how we invented such technology without understanding what it all means.

This thread is a good example of what happens when folks do not understand technology, they pervert the meaning.

Digital has to do with state and not time. Time domain events can be CONVERTED to state domain events, which is one of the functions an AD converter performs. Whenever the information is contained solely within the time domain portion of the signal, it’s a non-linear analog signal.

Well, one of the people arguing with you is ME, one of the pioneers in A/D and D/A conversion (Analog Devices), a designer of signal processing for the first CAT scan systems (Analogic Corporation), a designer of aircraft countermeasure systems (Sanders Assoc.) and, well, I'll stop there. Please don't lecture me on understanding technology.
 
All amps that have an on/off switch are digital! Your light at home is digital. It’s controlled by an on/off switch.
If you take that same light and flash it in a time varying sequence, the resulting signal is non-linear analog.

Binary state is different than digital as well. Just because a signal has 2 states does not make it digital,

Another example of a non-linear analog signal is the information contained within quadrature, though this could also be considered linear as well.

As always, it depends on the context.
 
If you take that same light and flash it in a time varying sequence, the resulting signal is non-linear analog.

No. It is analog information contained within a digital signal. "Non-linear analog" is more of a marketing term to avoid the "D" word than a technical term. Non-linearity as a technical term is an undesirable property of A/D or D/A conversion.

Binary state is different than digital as well. Just because a signal has 2 states does not make it digital,

That is the very definition of digital.

Another example of a non-linear analog signal is the information contained within quadrature, though this could also be considered linear as well.

Don't know what you mean by quadrature. There is quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM), quadrature phase shift keying (QPSK), quadrature filters, among others. By the way, all are digital.
 
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No. They do not sound inferior. :woot:
 
Anything that is reduced to on-off, 1-0 is digital. That's the definition of PWM.

Aged horse already gave a definition. I'd also like to add that in subtractive analog synthesis , PWM existed before the first digital synthesizers. Timeline 1930s/1950s vs digital 1973. You can control the PWM digitally using a CPU/MPU/DSP but before that it was always done with analog circuits and still being done today.
 
Well, one of the people arguing with you is ME, one of the pioneers in A/D and D/A conversion (Analog Devices), a designer of signal processing for the first CAT scan systems (Analogic Corporation), a designer of aircraft countermeasure systems (Sanders Assoc.) and, well, I'll stop there. Please don't lecture me on understanding technology.
Maybe yours is bigger than mine, maybe it's not...

Since you are a "recognized expert" in A/D/A conversion, I would expect that you would understand the difference in HOW the analog information is encoded, where the information is contained in the signal and what you can/can't do with the signal. If you come from a digital background, I can see your pre-disposition to a "digital" definition.

Since my background is as an analog design EE, I take the analog definition because the PWM process and theory was in use long before the "digital electronics" existed (going back easily into the early 1900's). The process has been used in generator control, lighting control, motor control, and frankly the theory extends outside of electronics and into the world of graphics and optics (the halftone graphic process being one process of PWM that has existed well before the world of digital electronics was even imagined.

Because the world is not black and white, the definition of PWM (in electronics) that I learned and those of my era practiced is that the signal is generated by purely analog methods (triangle/sawtooth (another analog signal) compared to the desired analog signal) the comparator being another analog process, the resulting pulses are non-linear analog, no more digital than the signals that they were generated from and the pulses themselves mean nothing in particular EXCEPT that the TIME duration of the pulses represent points of the analog signal through time. This can be done with light, water, doesn't matter because it's the process that's both non-linear (switching) and analog.

For an analog example of the PWM process, in a switchmode power supply (another non-linear analog process, though there are digital methods of creating such a supply as well), the output voltage is compared with a reference voltage in the error loop and the duty cycle of the PWM signal of the switcher is adjusted by changing the reference voltage of the switcher's PWM comparator. This is very much an analog process, and the PWM drive signal does nothing more than drive MOSFET gates between saturation and cutoff, the TIME of the on versus off signal can be adjusted by the error loop to maintain regulation (constant output). It's a free running, non-linear analog process that has essentially "infinite" resolution (ie. bitless).

For a light example, a spinning disk in front of a light source with an opening slot(s) or holes that varies with radial location on the spinning disc placed in front of a columnated light source can vary the intensity with the position of the disc relative to the light source. The individual openings are either 0% or 100%, so the question is if this represents digital, or does it represent non-linear?

For extra credit, is a chopper stabilized op amp a digital or analog device?

It depends on perspective, if all you have is a hammer, it's easier to see every screw looking like a nail. As analog guys die out, more and more technology will be claimed by the digital world. Also, digital techniques do evolve to take over analog functions, that's the nature of evolution.
 

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