Class D and Neo cabs are the future!

[seamonkey]

I've heard this stated before on TB and I have to disagree. We auditioned half a dozen different power amps mated to our preamp when deciding on our power section and every combination sounded different. Some I liked, some I did not.

I would be very surprised if someone could run the preamp from a GB Shuttle into a Crest CA9 and not hear and feel any difference at all.

Was it a double blind test?
Is it repeatable?
Can you publish the steps used?
Were any measurements done?
Gain matching?
....
A couple of DB's can make one amp appear to sound much better than another. The old audiophile store trick.

GB is a different case, They have customized some feedback/limiters/secrets in their design. It's not just an OTS class-d power amp in the box. Comparing GB amp section to a brand name Power Amp wouldn't be the same. Nor would be using a power amp with a built in DSP and goofing with the DSP. It would be different. But a little tweaking of the signal processing with one, you could duplicate the same sound.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

I've heard this stated before on TB and I have to disagree. We auditioned half a dozen different power amps mated to our preamp when deciding on our power section and every combination sounded different. Some I liked, some I did not.

I would be very surprised if someone could run the preamp from a GB Shuttle into a Crest CA9 and not hear and feel any difference at all.

I intend to try this with my Eden WTX-500 and CA9. I'll be sure to try to balance the loudness factor as best I can with a $80 meter. Probably won't get to it for a few weeks, though.

 

[JimmyM]

I intend to try this with my Eden WTX-500 and CA9. I'll be sure to try to balance the loudness factor as best I can with a $80 meter. Probably won't get to it for a few weeks, though.

hope that's not the only reason you bought it

i must admit i find a handful of these micro amps pretty stout and not at all embarrassing on a gig, except lookswise. i once ab'd an lmii and a 69 svt on a gig and tried to match sounds and volumes. the lmii ended up giving up the goods but it really held its own up until that point. when i dug in hard i could feel the limiting whereas with the svt it kept digging in with me. and this was at relatively low volumes. never thought to compare it to my sm-500 or svt 3 pro when i had them, though.

would it matter in a live pa system? eh. they're always compressing everything anyway. i know guys who stick by the iron, but if i was sourcing out a pa system now, i'd use class d amps. i don't mind an svt so much but i sure hate lugging around a rack full of 40 lb power amps for a pa. pa's are big enough.

 

[Munjibunga]

I'm going to try my WTX-500 tomorrow through an AE212 and, if the stars align and Mercury comes out of retrograde, I may bring it on home for my new light-weight rig. I sold my D-410XLT this week ... 98 pounds. Total weight of proposed rig = 55 + 4.8 pounds. Now if I could just get that much weight off my own self, I'd be in hog heaven.

 

[R Baer]

Was it a double blind test?
Is it repeatable?
Can you publish the steps used?
Were any measurements done?
Gain matching?
....
A couple of DB's can make one amp appear to sound much better than another. The old audiophile store trick.

GB is a different case, They have customized some feedback/limiters/secrets in their design. It's not just an OTS class-d power amp in the box. Comparing GB amp section to a brand name Power Amp wouldn't be the same. Nor would be using a power amp with a built in DSP and goofing with the DSP. It would be different. But a little tweaking of the signal processing with one, you could duplicate the same sound.

Can't say this was some highly technical testing. We just lined all the amps up and hooked them up one by one to our preamp. Our engineer checked to make sure the power amps always received the exact same input signal and that the power amps were all outputting out an equal signal. I then played through every combination of preamp and power amp. I had no idea which power amp I was listening to. No measurements taken. I leave the engineering to the engineers, when they have something for me to hear, I use my ears and go with what I like.

The difference between say an IcePower and an old 75lb. Carver, were night and day. IMO, there's a lot more to a power amp than just frequency response. That frequency response curve isn't going to tell you how the amp "feels" when playing finger style and muting the strings or how the amp is going to respond when I really lay into some heavy slapping or pick work. It also doesn't tell you how the amp is going to react with your speakers. For example, the Hypex class D module had this really lively response, that felt like the notes were just jumping off the neck, in contrast to a couple of the older MOSFET designs that had a more plush, almost tube like, quality to them.

I'm sure some of the engineering minds will disagree with my methods, but it works for me. I've also had plenty of "debates" with our engineer because I liked the sound of something that wasn't technically "correct" by his book. Quite a few times he had to admit that " I'll be damned, that actually sounds really good with bass".

 

[edwinhurwitz]

hope that's not the only reason you bought it

Nope. I played through a large Eden rig backlined for me a couple weeks ago (WT800 and two 410XLTs) and loved the tone and wanted to get something similar in a very light weight package. Since then, I've done a couple gigs with the WTX-500 and it does sound very nice but seems to run out of gas a little quickly. I recorded some tracks out of the direct out and got a great tone, so even if I have to just use the preamp section with another power amp for some gigs, I think it's still a good purchase. For rehearsals and smaller gigs (and larger if I can source some more efficient speakers), it's perfect.

Now, if I could only track down a McIntosh 3500, I'd have a perfect rig! 350 watts of all tube ultra clean power! I know the SVT is considered the holy grail of tube tone, with gritty gooey powerful goodness, around here, but I love the sound of a powerful clean tube amp.

 

[JimmyM]

interesting you say that, because up until the late 90's, everyone always thought of the svt as a powerful clean tube amp. then a handful of rock stars said how much they liked to crank them, and next thing you know everyone thinks that's all they're good for.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

interesting you say that, because up until the late 90's, everyone always thought of the svt as a powerful clean tube amp. then a handful of rock stars said how much they liked to crank them, and next thing you know everyone thinks that's all they're good for.

Interesting you say that. I've always thought they provided hair on my sound. In a good way, mind you, and I think some of it comes from the preamp. I was always a little frustrated by it to some degree as I came up playing Fender Showmen and was always trying to get louder and cleaner. Ultimately tubes were not the way to go. Solid state Mac was my first foray into a clean powerful tone 1978 and it went on from there. I guess I just love a lot of headroom.

 

[JimmyM]

well that's why they make different amps. makes discussions like this moot but that's why all those different brands and formats exist.

 

[baron665]

And cow farts are the major cause of global warming.

They are, at least according to PETA.

 

[Musicman20]

I agree completely on the cd 'loudness/volume' war. Absolutely ridiculous. Modern production of large bands is, mainly, nothing like it used to be or should be. Im only 29 (I say only, I feel old) and I can definitely say the early 90s were awesome for the CD format.

 

[KJung]

interesting you say that, because up until the late 90's, everyone always thought of the svt as a powerful clean tube amp. then a handful of rock stars said how much they liked to crank them, and next thing you know everyone thinks that's all they're good for.

Nope... not to my memory in the 70's and 80's. There were so many of us that were tired of our tone changing through the evening when the band started to push a bit. That is the beauty of powerful solid state gear (if that is your thing, of course), enough power to keep the THD relatively constant through the entire range of volume that you might need in any sort of context.

Of course, in your case, where you have soft stage volume and front of house, you are able to run your amps nice and soft and keep them sounding the same. I too appreciate an SVT run at a low, clean level. Of course, to me, that sounds very similar to many hybrid and solid state executions, so the weight would make no sense for me.

For most of us (at least the 100 or so bassists in my loose circle of freelancers over the years), we were never so happy to be able to dig in and crank at the end of the night and sound exactly the same as we did at the lower volume start of the night. The dropping of the 50-70 pounds of weight was, quite frankly, just an added bonus at the start. It was ALL about tone, constant performance, and handling of the transients with no give and no distortion and no compression (the famous tube amp 'give').

That was a revolution for many, many of us. And for those types of players, the vast majority will set their small solid state amp on top of that SVT head to drive the 810 when it is provided as backline.

That's just a fact. Of course, the organic, dynamic nature of a relatively low powered tube amp like the SVT is what those who still use them love... nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[mothra2]

I've heard this stated before on TB and I have to disagree. We auditioned half a dozen different power amps mated to our preamp when deciding on our power section and every combination sounded different. Some I liked, some I did not.

I would be very surprised if someone could run the preamp from a GB Shuttle into a Crest CA9 and not hear and feel any difference at all.

+1

 

[KJung]

GB is a different case, They have customized some feedback/limiters/secrets in their design. It's not just an OTS class-d power amp in the box. Comparing GB amp section to a brand name Power Amp wouldn't be the same. Nor would be using a power amp with a built in DSP and goofing with the DSP. It would be different. But a little tweaking of the signal processing with one, you could duplicate the same sound.

+1 This is a classic 'mistake'.... basing a comparison on a 'sample of one' and then attributing the findings to a more general 'cause' (i.e., class of amp or type of power supply). A thousand bad purchasing decisions have been based on this sort of thing. If I only had tried a Shuttle 6, I too would think 'class D amps are thin sounding, underpowered, and too bright'!

Here's a classic: 'I went to Guitar Center and played Markbass and didn't like it. This lightweight gear sucks' OK, was it the preamp voicing that the buyer didn't like, the particular speaker cabinets that the amp was paired with, the instrument that was used in the test?.

As I've posted many times, there is just as much variance in the tone and low end performance WITHIN SMPS driven amps as there is within more traditional designs. It would be like someone trying an AG500 and saying 'man, non SMPS amps are a bit wooly and don't really get that loud'.

I'll again state that once a person spends serious time with a Walter Woods, a TecAmp Puma, a Genz Shuttle, a Markbass LMIII, a Markbass SD800, a Markbass F500, a GKMBFusion, etc., it becomes clear that there is very little that can be said about 'type of power supply and/or type of power amp' that mirrors reality in any way. You will hear just as many differences as comparing an Eden WT800, a GK100RB, an Ag500, a DB750, and a Thunderfunk.

 

[mothra2]

iPod's have a lot of memory these days. You can load songs in lossless formats. Good earbuds or headphones and there is absolutely no compromise.

You can buy modelers for iPods like Amplitube iRig, it's catching on like crazy.

+1 ... then there IS hope!

Sorry man. You don't understand what lossless compression is. Lossless refers to the fact that it has the same linear pulse code modulation format a CD is in, so, in fact, the fidelity is identical to the 44.1k/16-bit playback from a CD.

.... or not ...

 

[chadds]

That slight touch down about using small PA (sound on a stick) for vocals and a backline for everything else came at just the right time. Had a fellow tell me we had to put it all through the PA. He can't understand that only concert rigs can adequately handle real bass guitar.
Gosh using a PA instead of being able to play in balance with each other is also so sad.

 

[modulusman]

That slight touch down about using small PA (sound on a stick) for vocals and a backline for everything else came at just the right time. Had a fellow tell me we had to put it all through the PA. He can't understand that only concert rigs can adequately handle real bass guitar.
Gosh using a PA instead of being able to play in balance with each other is also so sad.

Whatever. I have been playing alot of gigs lately with a classis rock band using just a Genz benz shuttle 6.0/12t. Plenty loud onstage, last weekend played a packed bar of about 150 people. I had my master volume at about 9 oclock. I could hear myself just fine onstage and the PA did the heavy lifting.

 

[JimmyM]

Nope... not to my memory in the 70's and 80's. There were so many of us that were tired of our tone changing through the evening when the band started to push a bit. That is the beauty of powerful solid state gear (if that is your thing, of course), enough power to keep the THD relatively constant through the entire range of volume that you might need in any sort of context.

Of course, in your case, where you have soft stage volume and front of house, you are able to run your amps nice and soft and keep them sounding the same. I too appreciate an SVT run at a low, clean level. Of course, to me, that sounds very similar to many hybrid and solid state executions, so the weight would make no sense for me.

wuss!

who said that???

That's just a fact. Of course, the organic, dynamic nature of a relatively low powered tube amp like the SVT is what those who still use them love... nothing wrong with that at all.

well i'm sure that's how you solid state fans looked at it, but i know of nary a single svt user from those days who thought of it as either low power or ran it dirty. i'm sure there was, but they were mostly doing arena shows. i used to play in some very loud hard rock bands back then and i was never able to turn a v4b up to distortion, let alone an svt.

 

[NecroticImbecil]

what do ya meen

the ford capri was the peoples coupe and the fact you can get one that still runs for 800 id say thats pretty economy

plus back in the day it was only a little more than a cortina wich meny called the peoples car because it wasnt expencive to own/run/buy new and they went around forever. so much so that in the 60's to the 80's they were pretty much used as police cars as was the capri

I meant I thought the car in your pic looked pretty cool. It's funny how even plain family cars from decades ago can manage to look cool today, and some have fuel economy comparable to today's cars.

As far as amps go, while I like and use huge, heavy antique tube amps, I do see the utility of small and light for certain situations. However, in 10 years, today's small and light will be just obsolete stepping stones on the way to smaller and lighter, while the antiques of today will still be "cool" and have a following. I'm also a strong believer in "use what you have," not having the $ to keep buying a rig every year because it's slightly smaller and lighter.

 

[KJung]

well i'm sure that's how you solid state fans looked at it, but i know of nary a single svt user from those days who thought of it as either low power or ran it dirty. i'm sure there was, but they were mostly doing arena shows. i used to play in some very loud hard rock bands back then and i was never able to turn a v4b up to distortion, let alone an svt.

I know dozens of SVT users from those days who feel the opposite (including me). Again, back in the day, that was almost all there was.

And, if you never were able to turn a V4b up to distortion, my gosh, you are a wuss Seriously though, if you were cranking a V4b in a loud rock situation, you were grinding, you just didn't realize it back in the day. Nothing wrong with that... that is THE tone for that context. It sounded wonderful. For those of us playing pop jazz back then, covering Sandborn tunes, etc. not so much. The right tool for the right job.

Again, I totally understand why many still love these amps, but your comments make little sense to me regarding volume and clean headroom of the SVT, much less the v4b.