Class D - where are the graphic EQs?

[bucephylus]

Oh come on.

90% of the pics I see here are guys whose amps have nearly every single control at noon; regardless if that is "flat" or not!

View attachment 7135847

Most of the time it isn't "flat" in the least bit!

Bass players are for some reason the most terrified of touching their amp knobs.

Guitarists don't have this problem. Could you imagine a Boogie Mark IIc run flat? Yuk!!!!

But then, these SAME bass players also seem to max out the treble and bass on their active eq basses...but don't dare touch them there hi-fallutin' amp knobs!!! No-sir-ee-bob!!!!

If more amps had graphic eqs, 90% of bassists here would leave 'em in a straight line, deathly afraid of...something.

Bass players aren't stupid.

But, I once had a conversation with a well-known bass amp designer who said that graphic eqs "confuse" bass players.

Hmmm...maybe they ARE.

This is pretty much inconsistent with my experience with TB’er posts and opinions; for the simple reason that nearly every gigging bassist needs to adjust their amps for different venues.

 

[Snert]

And EQ pedals add noise

Buy a better pedal. There's no reason a competent modern design should.

For that reason alone I believe that sliders are superior to knobs for basic EQ.

And allow for considerably more dust/dirt ingress.

 

[coyote1]

The poll was cited by agedhorse as a tool the industry is utilizing for guidance on product design and marketing. You know, in a thread questioning why there is virtually no Class D amplifier that has graphic EQ. Agedhorse’s signature indicates that he’s making these responses on behalf of a significant player in this market.

Is it really “axe grinding” to observe that this trajectory is clearly leading to a future in which a graphic EQ in an amp will likely be nonexistent?

 

[coyote1]

Buy a better pedal. There's no reason a competent modern design should.

And allow for considerably more dust/dirt ingress.

Potential solution: knobs, accompanied by graphic LED status display.

Although I gotta say this is an issue I’ve never had with any amp aside from a couple old Peavey amps, which for reasons unknown were prone to scratchiness in all pots and sliders.

 

[bucephylus]

The poll was cited by agedhorse as a tool the industry is utilizing for guidance on product design and marketing. You know, in a thread questioning why there is virtually no Class D amplifier that has graphic EQ. Agedhorse’s signature indicates that he’s making these responses on behalf of a significant player in this market.

Is it really “axe grinding” to observe that this trajectory is clearly leading to a future in which a graphic EQ in an amp will likely be nonexistent?

My impression was that Andy was simply reporting the data gathering that he specifically did in his own efforts to design amps that players would use. I’m not aware of any industry consensus, or broader significance of that poll. Nothing at all wrong with your prefs; and I doubt there will be no amps in the future with GEQ’s. Look at the recent GK offerings for products aimed at specific segments of the market.

Meanwhile, GEQ pedals are still around, and a good option. I still have a DOD FX40B. It sees limited use; but is an easy grab if needed.

 

[agedhorse]

I did neither. Please quote where I reached those conclusions.

I said the industry is ignoring NEARLY NINE percent of its market, and I said the poll results would allow those seeking to eliminate GEQ to claim 100%.

Sorry, I read that as 99% not 9% (or I missed your edit)

The 100% comment applied to your last sentence in your second to last paragraph. If I misunderstood what you were trying to to say, it wasn’t clear to me,

I was just showing WHY (with an example of more than a few players) GEQs have fallen out of favor in higher end mainstream bass amps. I never said anything about them being bad, or a bad choice for all players.

 

[Snert]

Although I gotta say this is an issue I’ve never had with any amp aside from a couple old Peavey amps, which for reasons unknown were prone to scratchiness in all pots and sliders.

I have repaired so much gear over the years, I would never design including sliders without being forced to.

My Mark VI is stock an working fine, but I do preventative maintenance on my gear unlike most players.

 

[agedhorse]

My impression was that Andy was simply reporting the data gathering that he specifically did in his own efforts to design amps that players would use. I’m not aware of any industry consensus, or broader significance of that poll. Nothing at all wrong with your prefs; and I doubt there will be no amps in the future with GEQ’s. Look at the recent GK offerings for products aimed at specific segments of the market.

Meanwhile, GEQ pedals are still around, and a good option. I still have a DOD FX40B. It sees limited use; but is an easy grab if needed.

Exactly correct, the data from players shows WHY manufacturers have been moving away from this feature.

I think part of it is because today’s speaker offerings don’t need it to sound good (or even acceptable). Everything evolves together IME.

 

[meisi]

Yet the number of players who find smaller size and cost to be more important than a graphic is much higher. Since adding a graphic adds size (and a little cost), Manufacturers are attempting to respond to what’s most important to most players.

There are plenty of differences between amps, different tone, texture, feel, dynamics, style, build quality, etc. many amps have similar features, yet sound and feel entirely different from each other.

Does this mean not enough demand for a 400+ reissue?!?

I kid, I kid.

 

[factory presets]

I know one of the big points of Class D is their smallness. And that designers have a tendency to want to leverage such selling points.

Both my amps - Hartke 3500 for electric, Crate BX100 combo for upright - have fantastic graphic equalizers. Especially with the upright, it’s that EQ that allows me to tame the acoustic feedback while retaining a sound that’s true to the instrument. And neither of these amps were expensive.

But at some near future point, I’m expecting both will become unserviceable. Enough components within will die that it won’t make economic sense to repair them. At which point I will want new amps. I’m just not seeing the “next phase” amp for me out there. Which is unfortunate, because certainly the weight savings would be a benefit to my aging back.

You've developed an eq technique that works for you and that's perfectly understandable. Unfortunately manufacturers want to make models that sell the most units. They're less interested in gearing up for a boutique model than you are in buying a custom made amp with all your favourite features.

Have you considered getting an eq pedal with swept mids and learning how to use it in your own sweet time before your current amps die? That way you still have what you know for gigs. Once you understand the subtleties of semi parametrics, you can sell the pedal and be prepared for when the rising tide of availability forces you to use a modern amp.

And never have to put up with the added pedal noise on a gig.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

I know one of the big points of Class D is their smallness. And that designers have a tendency to want to leverage such selling points.

Both my amps - Hartke 3500 for electric, Crate BX100 combo for upright - have fantastic graphic equalizers. Especially with the upright, it’s that EQ that allows me to tame the acoustic feedback while retaining a sound that’s true to the instrument. And neither of these amps were expensive.

But at some near future point, I’m expecting both will become unserviceable. Enough components within will die that it won’t make economic sense to repair them. At which point I will want new amps. I’m just not seeing the “next phase” amp for me out there. Which is unfortunate, because certainly the weight savings would be a benefit to my aging back.

Your not alone in your journey.
I'll be honest with you, the only good experience I've had with Class D has been unplugging it... for whatever reason, I sound like garbage through them, onboard parametric and - or graphic included. It's always the same with each and every lightweight amp ive used... a constant battle with the eq stage.

It's always seemed odd to me that others would suggest buying an amp that doesn't do what you want it to do, just because it's lightweight, then add hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of pedals (which negates the lightweight factor except for your bank balance) in front of the amp, to approximate the clean sound the amp doesn't provide.

I would strongly suggest buying up all the Hartke and Crate amps and possibly some graphic eq's you can locate and have a supply of spares..

What comes into being also goes out of being. Class D is no exception.

 

[coyote1]

Your not alone in your journey.
I'll be honest with you, the only good experience I've had with Class D has been unplugging it... for whatever reason, I sound like garbage through them, onboard parametric and - or graphic included. It's always the same with each and every lightweight amp ive used... a constant battle with the eq stage.

It's always seemed odd to me that others would suggest buying an amp that doesn't do what you want it to do, just because it's lightweight, then add hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of pedals (which negates the lightweight factor except for your bank balance) in front of the amp, to approximate the clean sound the amp doesn't provide.

I would strongly suggest buying up all the Hartke and Crate amps and possibly some graphic eq's you can locate and have a supply of spares..

What comes into being also goes out of being. Class D is no exception.

I’ve actually done that in one other interest area in my life. I have three well functioning of the same exact device. Because the parts are becoming unavailable.

As far as bass amps, I’ve already kinda done this. I have both the Hartke HA2000 and the HA3500. Had the 2000, and the 3500 became available for a pittance so I grabbed it. Within a few years the input on the 3500 failed. So I replaced it with the input from the 2000. The 3500’s fan is getting noisy, so that’s likely the next component replacement.

And yeah, if I see a BX100 or BFX100 cheap in good shape I will also grab it. It’s not a great amp for electric bass. But it is great for my upright, and it turns out to be a very good amp for jazz guitar. Has some sonic characteristics similar to some of the Polytone amps.

 

[dvdtlsn]

My local store had a special order SWR Mr. Tone that I was too dirt poor to buy. That thing was glorious.

I have the Groove Tube version of this preamp. It was ahead of its time and I still use it occasionally to record. I retired it along with the qsc power amp and 410 I had in that rig for the usual reasons having nothing to do with sound quality...

Regarding this post - The EQ is what you actually need with overlapping parametric controls on each eq fader. This is the proper way to implement 3 to 5 band eq.

 

[InhumanResource]

Graphics on amps have now been deemed ‘not cool’ by whoever decides such things(might be a cost of production issue)

That elusive critter is known as “the market”

 

[markjazzbassist]

Oh come on.

90% of the pics I see here are guys whose amps have nearly every single control at noon; regardless if that is "flat" or not!

View attachment 7135847

Most of the time it isn't "flat" in the least bit!

Bass players are for some reason the most terrified of touching their amp knobs.

Guitarists don't have this problem. Could you imagine a Boogie Mark IIc run flat? Yuk!!!!

But then, these SAME bass players also seem to max out the treble and bass on their active eq basses...but don't dare touch them there hi-fallutin' amp knobs!!! No-sir-ee-bob!!!!

If more amps had graphic eqs, 90% of bassists here would leave 'em in a straight line, deathly afraid of...something.

Bass players aren't stupid.

But, I once had a conversation with a well-known bass amp designer who said that graphic eqs "confuse" bass players.

Hmmm...maybe they ARE.

try pluggin a guitar in direct, it sounds like crap. try pluggin a bass in direct, sounds amazing and wonderful. we don't need a lot of tone shaping, our instruments sound good out of the box. guitarists NEED an amp and/or pedalboard to get their to sound like "a guitar". that's why we can set stuff at flat/noon and let the instrument and our fingers do the talking.

 

[Geri O]

It's always seemed odd to me that others would suggest buying an amp that doesn't do what you want it to do, just because it's lightweight, then add hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of pedals (which negates the lightweight factor except for your bank balance) in front of the amp, to approximate the clean sound the amp doesn't provide.

What comes into being also goes out of being. Class D is no exception.

So I guess you’d have everyone just be quiet and say nothing when you express such sentiments. Kinda anti-TB, doncha think?

As for that last bit, they (who the hell ever) has been saying that about SVTs for years. Guess how they are selling? Apparently pretty well, as there’s 2 versions of that amp available.

Class D has found its niche just as tube amps did (big transistor amps, too).

And that’s no exception.

 

[frankie5string]

A graphic eq can be glanced at, even from a distance, and you instantly know where it is set.
For that reason alone I believe that sliders are superior to knobs for basic EQ.

Top mounted amp knobs is the other trend that I think is a step backwards.

I think that SWR got EQ control right 40 years ago
View attachment 7135641

Funny you mention these because I spent years playing through them in rehearsal halls. These seemed to be the most abused, least understood EQ offerings of any amp at the time. People were used to the more simplistic GK-style EQ, and often dialed in all sorts of weird sounding stuff on these SWR units.

 

[Jefenator]

My B|Amp has a pretty advanced notch filter built in, but when I have to use it, it seems like the battle is already lost. I find what I really need is to position myself & the amp more sensibly – or to fire the drummer.
YMMV; I always use a pickup for my double bass onstage – along with a little outboard 10MΩ buffer w/ HPF & phase. (I'd love to be able to do away with it but I have yet to find a bass amp that works just as well, plugging straight in.)
If I were to delve into microphones, I would almost certainly have to find an appropriate preamp for that. Might be a good topic to discuss in the double bass forum if you haven't already.

 

[coyote1]

That elusive critter is known as “the market”

And that elusive critter often shapes consumer desire, rather than responding to it. Classic example was the Pet Rock back in the 1970s. There was no industrial or household need, and absolutely zero “pent up demand”, for a small rock in a printed box with a booklet on the care and feeding of said rock. Yet the thing sold millions. Another example is Starbucks. The market was NOT crying out for a wildly inflated, sugary-bitter cup of whatever that stuff is. Yet in major cities we now see a Starbucks on 34th Street, and then another on 35th Street, and another on 37th street.

Anyone who buys into the supply and demand concept as the sole driver of the market is deluding themselves. To quote Zappa in Poofter’s Froth Wyoming Plans Ahead, recorded live in 1975:

While we're at it, we have a sort of a cowboy song we'd like to do for ya
This is a song that deals with the rapidly approaching 200th birthday of the United States of America, ladies and gentlemen!
This is a song that warns you in advance that next year
Everybody is gonna try and sell you things that maybe you shouldn't ought to buy
And not only that, they've been planning it for years

 

[DanAdams]

Funny you mention these because I spent years playing through them in rehearsal halls. These seemed to be the most abused, least understood EQ offerings of any amp at the time. People were used to the more simplistic GK-style EQ, and often dialed in all sorts of weird sounding stuff on these SWR units.

The best controls for random people in a rehearsal space, and the best controls for an owner who understands them are two different things.
I would agree that those controls would not be good in rental space rehearsal amp many years ago.
Semi parametric EQ is now commonplace, I still don't have confidence that players know how it works.