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I'm not sure that the slimness of the GeorgeL cables is related to wire gauge... I thought it was merely less padding around the outside. But I could be wrong.
Check my sig for a link to cable reviews that are not based on the hype and lies told by cable vendors.
Did Butch at Bayou complete the huge backlog of cables he owed people, or is he just saying he's back in business?
That's a link worth checking out for sure.
I have one question about your capacitance score, though. Would it be safe to say that since capacitance determines how well the cable handles high frequencies, that what you might want to look for is a cable that is well "voiced" for your sounds preferences, sort of like where the tone knob is set?
For example, Sadowksy is recommending the Klotz, which I noticed is at 21, kind of lower than most but not the lowest. Could that be why Roger liked them?
FWIW, I've been using George L's for years but recently switched to an Analysis Plus Bass oval- it's definitely darker sounding than the low capacitance George L's. I'm not sure I'm thrilled with it's usability though- had some trouble with the jacks staying/getting plugged in.
bongomania
Commercial User
Robin Ruscio said:
The actual fact, as I've documented to the best of my ability, is that cables do not have any tonal qualities whatsoever apart from the capacitance.
Personal listening tests often convince people otherwise, but as soon as you make test truly blind (where the listener has no idea which cable they are hearing) any differences they heard before actually disappear! The Analysis cable sounds so much smoother because that's what the listener's brain decided based on all the input it was given--including expectations based on price, marketing, and conversations with other people.
Roger Sadowsky is as prone to that as anyone else, and so is Wooten and every other big name that endorses a cable. The fact that Sadowsky primarily makes active instruments actually removes the cable capacitance from the equation (outside of possible extreme cases).
+1
IMHO it's all about capacitance, and then simply the quality of the cable... how flexible/durable it is, how nice the plugs are, how decent the strain relief is, and how well the solders are made.
I gathered that you were suggesting that in your blog, but it was kind of buried in there, as was the detail about active instruments effectively making even capacitance a non- issue.
(Maybe you could make that more explicit.)
Can you therefore clarify what effect capacitance has on tone, then? I thought you were suggesting that a high capacitance cable has a slight high frequency roll off, like a tone knob, as you suggested in your blog. That certainly seems like something worth thinking about when selecting a cable, assuming you are using a passive instrument.
bongomania
Commercial User
I must apologize! I thought I had a link to my cable pages directly in my sig, but I don't! I was posting from my phone, and couldn't see that.
Here are the links:
Audio Cables Compared and Recommended
Analysis of Audio Cables
Effects of multiple cables in series?
How do different cables handle transient spikes?
Here are the links:
Audio Cables Compared and Recommended
Analysis of Audio Cables
Effects of multiple cables in series?
How do different cables handle transient spikes?
I saw those. I still don't quite get what effect capacitance has on tone since you're saying it is the only thing that influences tone but that I shouldn't consider that when picking a cable?
Is it not simply a high frequency roll off like those charts are demonstrating?
bongomania
Commercial User
What killed the Bass Oval for me was the noise it made when I did my handling-noise tests. When I "rattled" the cable, i.e. shook it around or smacked it against itself, it made a rattly bubbly clinking sound, like soda on ice in a tall glass being stirred with a spoon.
The high capacitance is a strike against it too, in a general all-purpose sense; HOWEVER it's totally valid that with a passive bass the Oval's capacitance can result in a subjectively beautiful or ideal tone, depending on the bass and the tastes of the listener. The way it gently rolls off highs with a passive instrument can sound "perfect" in some cases!
bongomania
Commercial User
It's a high-frequency rolloff with a hump in the mids just below the rolloff point. And the volume and tone knob settings on a passive instrument can make that rolloff and hump more extreme; and different pickups will also affect that shape.
So with a passive guitar for example, it's like a sweepable mids knob set to boost a little. That's one big reason guitarists have such strong opinions about how cables "sound".
A word about capacitance, that might help.
Every cable is going to have some capacitive nature between signal and return/ground.
To a given frequency, an appropriate level of capacitance looks like a short to ground. The smaller the cap (lower capacitance), the higher the frequencies affected significantly.
This is why the lower cap ratings are good for us. The reasons why the buffering of a preamp reduces or effectively eliminates this effect is more complicated, and I think relevant to the inductance of the pickup coils, which are effectively isolated by the preamp, but I better not try to explain that without first re-researching it, but bongomania is right... it's true.
So here's the seat of the pants deal...
The higher the capacitance, the lower the frequency that's effectively "shorted to ground" (or at least attenuated significantly). So what the lower capacitance does, is raise the affected frequencies up to the level where we basically don't care any more.
I welcome correction on this, but this is the way I remember it.
Every cable is going to have some capacitive nature between signal and return/ground.
To a given frequency, an appropriate level of capacitance looks like a short to ground. The smaller the cap (lower capacitance), the higher the frequencies affected significantly.
This is why the lower cap ratings are good for us. The reasons why the buffering of a preamp reduces or effectively eliminates this effect is more complicated, and I think relevant to the inductance of the pickup coils, which are effectively isolated by the preamp, but I better not try to explain that without first re-researching it, but bongomania is right... it's true.
So here's the seat of the pants deal...
The higher the capacitance, the lower the frequency that's effectively "shorted to ground" (or at least attenuated significantly). So what the lower capacitance does, is raise the affected frequencies up to the level where we basically don't care any more.
I welcome correction on this, but this is the way I remember it.
***Re. capacitance & active bass : I use the active preamp on the bass engaged but set flat w/ no boost much of the time. As well , I'm running it into a HI-Z input of a separate preamp. According to what you said about this combination, it IS this interaction ( low-Z out - high-Z in) that is required to negate the effect of capacitance. Do I understand this correctly?
***Maybe you could also help me understand THIS : Why is it that I can NEVER record the tone that I monitor -pre recording. It drives me crazy. The recording never sounds like the live playing I hear AS I'm playing. What is it about the recording process that could cause this? IF I understood this maybe the cable isn't the problem. THANKS!!!
B.
bongomania
Commercial User
Yes.
One possibility is that when you're playing, you are "feeling" the whole process, the groove, the vibe of playing the tune--but when you sit back and listen later, that physical element is removed and you just hear what came through the wires. I know that sounds "woo woo hippie" especially after I made such a big thing of scientific measurements, but it really is true that a big part of our musical experience is a feeling in the moment.
Additionally there's ear fatigue. Say for example you've been working on a tune all day, and you finally have it nailed to the point you are satisfied with the recording... but then when you play it back the next day it sounds all wrong. This is because our ears and brains steadily adjust their response to loud or constant sounds, actually filtering what we hear, and the longer the session, the more filtering occurs. Then a few hours later our ears are "refreshed" and we hear things totally differently.
Another thing is the monitors themselves--are you listening through the exact same speakers or headphones both during and after the recording?
^^^
Thanks man. I do appreciate what is involved w/ ear/brain fatigue, especially at my age.
BUT - You would expect that effect to be reversed > having the tone be more "actual" & accurate the next day. Regardless of the many hours of playing/recording, the tone always seems to contain more detail & higher register nuance as I play than it does on the recording & I wonder if it's just an inherent limitation of the transfer of signal onto the recording. Now this is probably in part due to my system but , as you say, the brain is a very complex computer when subjectivity (is that a word?) is involved. It's a huge problem for me with respect to establishing bass control settings. I spend a LOT of time recording samples of these variations, only to find that I end up disappointed. Please tell me there's a CABLE out there that will rectify this.
JK. 
B.
Edit: Yes I monitor through Sennheiser HD600 hd ph / Mac computer always.
One other thing > The Zaolla cable has a silver core condutor & wondered if that could have a bearing on the high rating you give that one. Silver litz wire is used for many high end audio applications due to conductive excellence. Speaking of which - what's your take on "skin effect" in a conductor? This is a major aspect of the "Analysis Plus" Bass Oval technology.
Edit #2 : Just a reminder y'all - this is still all about a cable bringing out the BEST in our Sadowsky bass.
Thanks man. I do appreciate what is involved w/ ear/brain fatigue, especially at my age.
BUT - You would expect that effect to be reversed > having the tone be more "actual" & accurate the next day. Regardless of the many hours of playing/recording, the tone always seems to contain more detail & higher register nuance as I play than it does on the recording & I wonder if it's just an inherent limitation of the transfer of signal onto the recording. Now this is probably in part due to my system but , as you say, the brain is a very complex computer when subjectivity (is that a word?) is involved. It's a huge problem for me with respect to establishing bass control settings. I spend a LOT of time recording samples of these variations, only to find that I end up disappointed. Please tell me there's a CABLE out there that will rectify this.
JK. B.
Edit: Yes I monitor through Sennheiser HD600 hd ph / Mac computer always.
One other thing > The Zaolla cable has a silver core condutor & wondered if that could have a bearing on the high rating you give that one. Silver litz wire is used for many high end audio applications due to conductive excellence. Speaking of which - what's your take on "skin effect" in a conductor? This is a major aspect of the "Analysis Plus" Bass Oval technology.
Edit #2 : Just a reminder y'all - this is still all about a cable bringing out the BEST in our Sadowsky bass.
Joeykun
pronounced ジョーイくん
- Jun 22, 2007
- 4,200
- 16,150
- Disclosures
- Endorsing: LAKLAND SADOWSKY GENZLER DARKGLASS NORDSTRAND TEMPLEBOARD KIRLIN DRSTRINGS ACCESS
P. Bass said:
Whew..... I thought I was lost in the Cable Club thread!
P.S. Have you tried Sadowsky cables?
Whew..... I thought I was lost in the Cable Club thread!
P.S. Have you tried Sadowsky cables?
OK Joey - don't be a smart ass.
I Love it!And - no I haven't tried the Sad' cables & BELIEVE me It's been on my mind. That Klotz cable is very appealing & I think I can get one in Toronto @ the Metro dealer here. EDIT: just checked - no go here - would have to order from the shop. Hate to buy something like this w/o audition.
Roger has better ears than me SO........ Have you tried one of those?
B.
Joeykun
pronounced ジョーイくん
- Jun 22, 2007
- 4,200
- 16,150
- Disclosures
- Endorsing: LAKLAND SADOWSKY GENZLER DARKGLASS NORDSTRAND TEMPLEBOARD KIRLIN DRSTRINGS ACCESS
P. Bass said:OK Joey - don't be a smart ass.
And - no I haven't tried the Sad' cables & BELIEVE me It's been on my mind. That Klotz cable is very appealing & I think I can get one in Toronto @ the Metro dealer here. EDIT: just checked - no go here - would have to order from the shop. Hate to buy something like this w/o audition.
Roger has better ears than me SO........ Have you tried one of those?
B.
I haven't. My gig bag has 2 of every Planet Waves cables I use live. So, not really in the market for more.
I was gonna buy one of those TM Stevens cables but then looked in my gig bag and decided not to.
bongomania
Commercial User
Nope. In fact I make a point of the fact that the Zaolla cable has higher resistance, meaning lower conductance, than any other cable I tested. Silver wire, skin effect and the litz cable concept all look good on paper, which is what Analysis Plus counts on when they trot those ideas out for customers. But in practical application, they have no effect at/on audio frequencies. Skin effect, "current bunching" etc. come into play at radio frequencies, at long distances like a mile or more. This is a detail glossed over by cable vendors.
My high opinion of the Zaolla is based 100% on the specs I describe in the chart. If its silver content has anything to do with those qualities, I'd be surprised--but I suppose it's possible.
