Confessions of a Flatwound convert...

[billoetjen]

Somebody on TB recently convinced me to switch to LaBella DTB for P basses, and I chose the standard set (760S). They seem pretty similar to the Chromes I had on it before. Maybe a little more refined sounding - less chimey? Without a direct A/B recorded blind comparison, there's no way to be objective. Maybe with some of the highs and mids out of the way, that "punch" in the gut stands out better. And isn't that the point of a P?

Anyway, the reason for this posting is that I brought my brand new SX P bass (with Dimarzio pup and lock-down saddle upgrades) over to a friend's house (he was having a party) for a second opinion. He's a kid in his twenties who plays metal (slap/pop, and very fast fingerstyle). He actually has
GREAT chops, way better than me, even though his style doesn't speak to me. He plugged into his SVT amp and 4X10. He's used to his 5 string Warwick custom shop metal axe, but he was transfixed by the tone from the $110 SX. It totally was the flats that grabbed him. Well, the SVT rig didn't take anything away from it. Even at low volume levels it was a great combination. The rest of the night, he would not put the SX down; even unplugged kept it slung over his shoulder. It was the flats.
I think I'll keep the Chromes on the rest of my basses, but give the DTB's a few months to tell me what they have.

Bill

 

[Sundogue]

Somebody on TB recently convinced me to switch to LaBella DTB for P basses, and I chose the standard set (760S). They seem pretty similar to the Chromes I had on it before. Maybe a little more refined sounding - less chimey? Without a direct A/B recorded blind comparison, there's no way to be objective. Maybe with some of the highs and mids out of the way, that "punch" in the gut stands out better. And isn't that the point of a P?

Anyway, the reason for this posting is that I brought my brand new SX P bass (with Dimarzio pup and lock-down saddle upgrades) over to a friend's house (he was having a party) for a second opinion. He's a kid in his twenties who plays metal (slap/pop, and very fast fingerstyle). He actually has
GREAT chops, way better than me, even though his style doesn't speak to me. He plugged into his SVT amp and 4X10. He's used to his 5 string Warwick custom shop metal axe, but he was transfixed by the tone from the $110 SX. It totally was the flats that grabbed him. Well, the SVT rig didn't take anything away from it. Even at low volume levels it was a great combination. The rest of the night, he would not put the SX down; even unplugged kept it slung over his shoulder. It was the flats.
I think I'll keep the Chromes on the rest of my basses, but give the DTB's a few months to tell me what they have.

Bill

That's cool. For the most part, there will always be people that just don't like the sound of flats, especially when played alone. But even the round lovers have to admit that most of "their tone" gets lost in the mix. They really can't deny that or all of those threads about "what can I do to cut through the mix?" posts would not exist.

Futhermore, the whole idea of "cutting through" the mix is counterproductive. What they are really saying is that their rounds make them sound more like lower tuned guitars and they can't hear themselves. The reason being of course, is that they play bass but they aren't getting their bass to reside in that low end sonic space between guitars and drums. Flats will do that for them, but they won't go there for some reason.

Kudos to you on opening some eyes about the power of the flats!

 

[Chef]

With all due respect, I completely disagree.

That's cool. For the most part, there will always be people that just don't like the sound of flats, especially when played alone. But even the round lovers have to admit that most of "their tone" gets lost in the mix. They really can't deny that or all of those threads about "what can I do to cut through the mix?" posts would not exist.

Futhermore, the whole idea of "cutting through" the mix is counterproductive. What they are really saying is that their rounds make them sound more like lower tuned guitars and they can't hear themselves. The reason being of course, is that they play bass but they aren't getting their bass to reside in that low end sonic space between guitars and drums. Flats will do that for them, but they won't go there for some reason.

Kudos to you on opening some eyes about the power of the flats!

 

[JustDavid]

[snip] I can't run the Chromes thru-body due to the felt extending past the nut. [snip]

Tried their longest length? Or the silk can be peeled or cut off; all you need is that the step-down windings are tuner-side of the nut.

 

[Sundogue]

With all due respect, I completely disagree.

With which part? Or all of it?

I have been carefully listening to not only live bands with bass players who use rounds, but also recordings of bass players that use rounds (specifically for this phenomenon). Aside from a band like Rush where it is only a three piece band and Geddy's sound isn't getting lost in the mush of other instruments, most all of the "extra" tone one finds with rounds (sizzle, brightness, clarity...whatever terms one wants to use to define that piano like 'tone' of a round) isn't heard very well at all when the whole band is playing. Even on most of Yes's songs, unless being featured on a cut, Squire's roundwound tone is buried under the other instruments. Unless a bass player is soloing, or playing with drums alone, or the bass is clearly the "front" instrument on a song, all of the benefits of playing rounds is lost in the mix.

I've been paying close attention to this a lot lately. You hear a bass part that is pretty much only the bass playing and you can hear that roundwound tone...and then the whole band comes back in and it's "where did it go?".

I very seldom hear anyone playing bass using flats complain of being lost in the mix (all things being equal). Why is that do you suppose? I do believe that while rounds still produce the fundamentals of the low frequencies (which is why the bass is still heard with the rest of the band), it is specifically the overtones and harmonics of these brighter strings that get all mushed up with the guitars...thus the "roundwound tone' is lost. I didn't say the bass got lost...only the 'roundwound tone'.

Now having said that, it depends on the music being played, the number of other instruments in the mix, and the volume at which the music is being played. There is nothing subtle about loud, hard rock, so what benefit is there to the subtleties rounds would provide?

Bass guitards aren't lost in the mix because the bass is featured more and for all practical purposes it's another guitar, and for the most part the music bass guitards play has nothing to do with a powerful driving rhythm section. Beautiful music perhaps, but it has nothing to do with the purposes of my discussion on the topic.

 

[JustDavid]

Rounds going more into 'guitar zone' can contribute to the mix, like background vocals. Versus their sound being 'lost', think of it as 'contributing'.

Sundogue, I'm as big a fan of Flats as you are. But I don't see them being all things to all people. I'm glad you started this thread, & shared so well on your own experience with Flats. But some readers will switch while some will be just more broadly informed of an option with it's pros & cons.

 

[Sundogue]

Rounds going more into 'guitar zone' can contribute to the mix, like background vocals. Versus their sound being 'lost', think of it as 'contributing'.

Sundogue, I'm as big a fan of Flats as you are. But I don't see them being all things to all people. I'm glad you started this thread, & shared so well on your own experience with Flats. But some readers will switch while some will be just more broadly informed of an option with it's pros & cons.

Being a 30 year vet of roundwounds...and doing that whole Chris Squire, Geddy like thing, I can certainly appreciate the whole roundwound fixation. Been there, done that.

It's not like I'm anti-roundwound. Far from it. Heck if I had a Rick, that baby would be strung up with some nice bright new roundwounds and I wouldn't think twice about doing that.

As far as contributing to the mix...I agree, but it all depends on the musical context. I play in a loud, hard classic rock band with two guitars, keyboards and drums. Rounds on my basses just muck up the mix and actually create a void between the drummer and the guitars. I've proven it by doing nothing more than switching to flats, using the same amp, same bass, same EQ'ing...nothing different other than the strings.

HUGE difference. Flats gave me separation from the guitars. They lock me into my own sonic world that fills that low end void and creates a sonic wall giving the rhythm section a power and tightness that was lacking when I played with rounds. And before anyone says I could have done it with rounds...NO, it wouldn't have worked. I know, I tried. Different amps, cabs, pedals, EQ'ing, technique, praying, etc. I even did the whole string muting thing at the bridge to give the rounds more "thud" and while it helped it was not a long term answer as not everything can be played that way. Even that was a poor substitute. Flats are what made the difference. I'm no newbie to bass or how to make it work. I've tried flats on and off for years, but always went away from them because of how they sounded playing by myself.

Flats won't be for everyone. My purposes for this thread was not to convert others, or convince roundwound users that their choice of string sucks...but rather give a better context for those who might consider going to flats, but have a hard time doing so because of the way flats sound when playing alone versus playing with the whole band.

Personally I still prefer the tone of roundwounds. I would still be using them if I remained selfish and only concerned with my own sound, instead of being totally devoted to the rhythm section as a whole. That isn't to say those using rounds are selfish...I'm just speaking to my own situation.

 

[Count Bassie]

A real relevant point: Bass on it's own (solo'd) is a different story than bass in an ensemble.

I'm trying out a Yorkville 400B head, and don't like the sound at all. But at a gig the other night the guy running sound said my bass sound made all the difference for getting the room sound together.

I might have to get it for that reason. Inside of me somewhere, I'm saying "Ew...". But it might be the gig-amp.

 

[JustDavid]

Well, I'm a bigger fan of Flats than you . I only like Rounds on fretless.

[Flats won't be for everyone. My purposes for this thread was not to convert others, or convince roundwound users that their choice of string sucks...but rather give a better context for those who might consider going to flats, but have a hard time doing so because of the way flats sound when playing alone versus playing with the whole band.]

With ya, bro, & that's what I love about this thread. Paraphrasing "here is an option, & a very viable option. it's pros & cons are . . ."

I think an intent of the thread WAS to convert people. But in the nicest possible way, by offering your experience with Flats & permitting them to 'convert' themselves. The thread HAS converted people to Flats. Again paraphrasing, it let people solve sound issues with a relatively-inexpensive gear choice.

 

[Sundogue]

A real relevant point: Bass on it's own (solo'd) is a different story than bass in an ensemble.

I'm trying out a Yorkville 400B head, and don't like the sound at all. But at a gig the other night the guy running sound said my bass sound made all the difference for getting the room sound together.

I might have to get it for that reason. Inside of me somewhere, I'm saying "Ew...". But it might be the gig-amp.

It's really a mindset. I often wonder if some of this has to do with insecurities of musicians. How often have bass players had to defend their choice of instrument to those that "bass is easy", or "Guitar is harder because you only have four strings"?

With that in your subconscious, how much of this desire to stand out, play more complicated bass lines, and make the bass stick out like a sore thumb comes from that?

Also, with the mindset that "no one really notices the bass", how many bass players feel insecure or inadequate relegating themselves to the "background" as it were and being totally subservient to the song?

I personally don't care anymore. When someone says bass is easy, I tell them "Yeah, it is...so what? While it might be easy for a lot of songs it isn't for all of them. And while perhaps no one notices the bass, it isn't unimportant as EVERYONE would notice if it wasn't there. People don't dance to guitar, they dance to the rhythm section.

We bass players definitely need to be concerned with how we fit into the context in which we play. That "smiley face" EQ some love, or those roundwounds, amp, cab, etc. we feel we NEED for OUR tone, isn't always what works within the context of a live band.

Being a working musician that does no recording, never solos and plays out live on a regular basis, I can't be concerned with only MY tone. I have four other musicians and a dancing, paying public to be responsible for. I'm not only OK with my role as bass player, but I'm relishing it. To each his own.

 

[rustynuts]

Tried their longest length? Or the silk can be peeled or cut off; all you need is that the step-down windings are tuner-side of the nut.

Now why didn't I think of that...?

 

[Sundogue]

...With ya, bro, & that's what I love about this thread. Paraphrasing "here is an option, & a very viable option. it's pros & cons are . . ."

I think an intent of the thread WAS to convert people. But in the nicest possible way, by offering your experience with Flats & permitting them to 'convert' themselves. The thread HAS converted people to Flats. Again paraphrasing, it let people solve sound issues with a relatively-inexpensive gear choice.

I really was not intent on converting others because it really is such a personal process.

But yes, I agree with you. In sharing an epiphany of sorts, my hope was that those who might already be going through a similar process wouldn't feel the need to cling to popular choice as a way to validate themselves (which is all too common here on TB ).

Let's face it, when some newfangled piece of gear gets raved about, there are so many that will jump ship for no other reason than to feel they belong (Club threads anyone? ). I think of how many people feel so insecure that they will go as far as to say they love Wooten and Jaco (even if they don't), and will try to emulate players (with chops and gear) that doesn't even apply to what there own band situation is, and then wonder why it ain't working for them.

I make no bones about playing in a classic hard rock band. I could care less if anyone thinks less of me because I love playing that more than jazz, or if I love flats more than rounds, or if (heaven forbid) Wooten and Jaco do nothing for me (even though I can appreciate their talent).

So yeah...My hope is that some bass players will embrace being a BASS player and try flats, even if it isn't the popular choice. I hope to give them reasons they may not have considered before. I just hope it doesn't become the latest TB fad..."Flats...the new rounds."

 

[Sufenta]

I wonder how much naivety regarding flatwounds is due to the fact that they can cost up to twice as much rounds? Its costly enough to string a few basses with rounds and even more so if you're a fan of that 'fresh new rounds' sound. Its definitely more expensive to be a flatwound player at least in terms of a first time investment.

 

[Sundogue]

I wonder how much naivety regarding flatwounds is due to the fact that they can cost up to twice as much rounds? Its costly enough to string a few basses with rounds and even more so if you're a fan of that 'fresh new rounds' sound. Its definitely more expensive to be a flatwound player at least in terms of a first time investment.

The only flats I've ever purchased that were way more expensive than rounds were TI Jazz Flats (and they were way more expensive than even other flats).

Flats and Rounds cost about the same overall. Adding a low B to any set (rounds or flats) will be the biggest difference in price.

DR Sunbeam rounds for a four string bass were about $25.
D'Addario Chromes (flats) for a four string bass? About $28

Where are you buying strings from?

 

[JustDavid]

Comparing set prices, all from juststrings.com:
$16.52 D'Addario ProSteels
$28.91 D'Addario Chromes
$53.34 TI Jazz Flats.

Call it $30 to try out Flats. Yeah, it's $30 that wouldn't be spent otherwise, but compare $30 to the price of pedals, amps, & cabs that someone could easily be trying out while trying to sit better in the mix.

 

[nortonrider]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

CHROMES!

 

[Sufenta]

The only flats I've ever purchased that were way more expensive than rounds were TI Jazz Flats (and they were way more expensive than even other flats).

Flats and Rounds cost about the same overall. Adding a low B to any set (rounds or flats) will be the biggest difference in price.

DR Sunbeam rounds for a four string bass were about $25.
D'Addario Chromes (flats) for a four string bass? About $28

Where are you buying strings from?

La Bella flats from JustStrings are $42.59 and the TI flats are $53.47. Granted that not all are that expensive, but they are generally more expensive than rounds and that might deter some from investigating the option of flats.

 

[Sundogue]

La Bella flats from JustStrings are $42.59 and the TI flats are $53.47. Granted that not all are that expensive, but they are generally more expensive than rounds and that might deter some from investigating the option of flats.

I just paid $41 for a 5 string set of D'Addario Chromes from juststrings.com

I'd hardly call that a huge difference in price, especially when (in order to maintain their bright sound) roundwounds need to be changed so often and some people NEVER change their flats.

But yeah, for someone who can't scrape up an additional $5 -$20 extra, I could see it as a deterrent.

 

[dvh]

It's really a mindset. I often wonder if some of this has to do with insecurities of musicians. How often have bass players had to defend their choice of instrument to those that "bass is easy", or "Guitar is harder because you only have four strings"?

With that in your subconscious, how much of this desire to stand out, play more complicated bass lines, and make the bass stick out like a sore thumb comes from that?

Also, with the mindset that "no one really notices the bass", how many bass players feel insecure or inadequate relegating themselves to the "background" as it were and being totally subservient to the song?

I personally don't care anymore. When someone says bass is easy, I tell them "Yeah, it is...so what? While it might be easy for a lot of songs it isn't for all of them. And while perhaps no one notices the bass, it isn't unimportant as EVERYONE would notice if it wasn't there. People don't dance to guitar, they dance to the rhythm section.

We bass players definitely need to be concerned with how we fit into the context in which we play. That "smiley face" EQ some love, or those roundwounds, amp, cab, etc. we feel we NEED for OUR tone, isn't always what works within the context of a live band.

Being a working musician that does no recording, never solos and plays out live on a regular basis, I can't be concerned with only MY tone. I have four other musicians and a dancing, paying public to be responsible for. I'm not only OK with my role as bass player, but I'm relishing it. To each his own.

+1000 Sundogue. And, let's not forget, playing the right notes is only HALF of it. How are you playing them? Are you pushing the rythym? Grooving on the ass end? Throwing triplets in or sustaining notes as the dynamic of the song makes you feel? Are you feeling each note? Does everyone count?

That's what a lot of people don't get about bass, it, more than guitar, keys, or even drums, dictates the feel of the song. So it becomes a lot more than just playing the right notes.

I am finding with flats that I understand and feel that better.

Gigged again last night with the 50s P and flats. I am really digging this trip and the band, and the audience are digging it too.

 

[rustynuts]

Just paid $20.75 (every day price on them) yesterday for a 4 string set of Chromes. ECB81s, but they're all the same price.