Confessions of a Flatwound convert...

[Chef]

QUOTE SUNDOGUE...all of it or part of it.[/quote]

All of it. You can put flats on and disappear into the mix just as easy with rounds. You can put rounds on your bass and become an integral part of the musical whole just as easy with rounds.

Flats are not an ultimate solution to anything; they are part of an available tonal palette comprised of your hands, your bass, your amp, your cab, your room/mic/venue, your engineer, your band mate, and your mindset.

Flats can condemn you to mudpile when combined with a dark bass, dark cab, boomy room, crummy technique.

There is no single solution.

Don't take this as the rat of an anti-fan, cause I'm not. In fact, I have two of several basses that I use a lot and keep one strung flat, one strung round.

Furthermore, more good eq, the right cab and technique, you can very well mimic one for the other.

Are flats good? Sure! Are they great for some applications? You bet!
Are they all things to all people? Nope.

They're one of many personal choices that you make as a bassist when looking at any particular piece of music, studio session, live gig...to do what you can to be the best tool for the job at that moment.

 

[Count Bassie]

It's really a mindset. I often wonder if some of this has to do with insecurities of musicians. How often have bass players had to defend their choice of instrument to those that "bass is easy", or "Guitar is harder because you only have four strings"?

With that in your subconscious, how much of this desire to stand out, play more complicated bass lines, and make the bass stick out like a sore thumb comes from that?

Also, with the mindset that "no one really notices the bass", how many bass players feel insecure or inadequate relegating themselves to the "background" as it were and being totally subservient to the song?

I personally don't care anymore. When someone says bass is easy, I tell them "Yeah, it is...so what? While it might be easy for a lot of songs it isn't for all of them. And while perhaps no one notices the bass, it isn't unimportant as EVERYONE would notice if it wasn't there. People don't dance to guitar, they dance to the rhythm section.

We bass players definitely need to be concerned with how we fit into the context in which we play. That "smiley face" EQ some love, or those roundwounds, amp, cab, etc. we feel we NEED for OUR tone, isn't always what works within the context of a live band.

Being a working musician that does no recording, never solos and plays out live on a regular basis, I can't be concerned with only MY tone. I have four other musicians and a dancing, paying public to be responsible for. I'm not only OK with my role as bass player, but I'm relishing it. To each his own.

(Here comes my defence!) I am pretty sure I don't like the sound of tha Yorkville 400B because it's very boxy and midrangey to me, and I find it not as clear a tone to listen to. It causes some of my notes to 'blur', and I really want to hear each note and it's nuance.

Nevertheless, I'm finding my approach changing lately- and going back to what I was doing when I started playing 30 years ago. It was just a gas to make the band go! Make it sound good and groove noce. Can you say POCKET? It's a more essential role now (again), and the character of the rhythm section and the sound I help make is more important than the notes I'm trying to play.

For this reason I may just stick with the amp- and my point in digressing is the solo bass vs ensemble bass idea. It ties in with the flats vs round discussion: It's about the end result, not my own perception of what I do on my own.

 

[Sundogue]

All of it. You can put flats on and disappear into the mix just as easy with rounds. You can put rounds on your bass and become an integral part of the musical whole just as easy with rounds.

Flats are not an ultimate solution to anything; they are part of an available tonal palette comprised of your hands, your bass, your amp, your cab, your room/mic/venue, your engineer, your band mate, and your mindset.

Flats can condemn you to mudpile when combined with a dark bass, dark cab, boomy room, crummy technique.

There is no single solution.

Don't take this as the rat of an anti-fan, cause I'm not. In fact, I have two of several basses that I use a lot and keep one strung flat, one strung round.

Furthermore, more good eq, the right cab and technique, you can very well mimic one for the other.

Are flats good? Sure! Are they great for some applications? You bet!
Are they all things to all people? Nope.

They're one of many personal choices that you make as a bassist when looking at any particular piece of music, studio session, live gig...to do what you can to be the best tool for the job at that moment.

I agree flats aren't the ultimate solution to anything...on their own. For me, they were the final piece to the puzzle. All things being equal, Flats did it where the rounds didn't. And I'm finding that to be true even when playing through three entirely different rigs. Same result. For me anyway.

Flats nailed to a stick and played through a an old CS-800 and a blown out 18" scoop isn't going to be distinct, punchy or have any clarity. My point is that with all other things being equal, flats can give you amore distinct low end than rounds will.

And like the "SS will never sound like an all tube amp" debate...No, rounds will not sound just like flats even if you mute and turn your tone control down.

 

[dvh]

QUOTE SUNDOGUE...all of it or part of it.

All of it. You can put flats on and disappear into the mix just as easy with rounds. You can put rounds on your bass and become an integral part of the musical whole just as easy with rounds.

Flats are not an ultimate solution to anything; they are part of an available tonal palette comprised of your hands, your bass, your amp, your cab, your room/mic/venue, your engineer, your band mate, and your mindset.

Flats can condemn you to mudpile when combined with a dark bass, dark cab, boomy room, crummy technique.

There is no single solution.

Don't take this as the rat of an anti-fan, cause I'm not. In fact, I have two of several basses that I use a lot and keep one strung flat, one strung round.

Furthermore, more good eq, the right cab and technique, you can very well mimic one for the other.

Are flats good? Sure! Are they great for some applications? You bet!
Are they all things to all people? Nope.

They're one of many personal choices that you make as a bassist when looking at any particular piece of music, studio session, live gig...to do what you can to be the best tool for the job at that moment.

True, dat, Chef but there is one difference that is a constant: the higher tension on (most) flats. I am finding that quality makes me a better player. It just seems like that tension is made for my particular fingerstyle technique.

 

[JustDavid]

the higher tension on (most) flats.

DVH, I thank you for the "(most)" but I'm not going to let that myth propagate at all in a pro-Flats thread.

SOME Flats have high tension. Some ROUNDS have high tension.

D'Addario Chromes have a comparable tension to their Rounds of the same gauge. TI Jazz Flats have extremely low tension.

And then there's "touch" or "flexibility", which can feel like a tension change. I can see Flats having less flexibility than Rounds due to the different outer wrap, but flexibility seems to have a lot to do with core structure (hex core versus round core, et cetera).


I just don't want someone avoiding TI Jazz Flats for their Geddy Jazz because "flats have high tension".

 

[dvh]

DVH, I thank you for the "(most)" but I'm not going to let that myth propagate at all in a pro-Flats thread.

SOME Flats have high tension. Some ROUNDS have high tension.

D'Addario Chromes have a comparable tension to their Rounds of the same gauge. TI Jazz Flats have extremely low tension.

And then there's "touch" or "flexibility", which can feel like a tension change. I can see Flats having less flexibility than Rounds due to the different outer wrap, but flexibility seems to have a lot to do with core structure (hex core versus round core, et cetera).


I just don't want someone avoiding TI Jazz Flats for their Geddy Jazz because "flats have high tension".

Fair clarification.

FWIW I have the TI Jazz Flats on my fretless and GHS Precision Flatwounds on my P. The latter have more tension than the Sunbeams I used to have on there so that is what I'm measuring against.

edit to ask: what are some of the high tension rounds available?

 

[Sundogue]

I would also like to add (regarding Chef's disagreement with me)...

All things being equal, flats will put you more into a place in the mix between the drummer and the guitars than rounds will. I'm not talking about how flats will sound better on a piece of crap bass or rig that already sounds like crap with rounds.

And I really stress all things being equal because if you are running a bass with rounds through a rig that is already clear, tight, punchy, what-have-you, then yes just switching to flats will make a BIG difference in putting you in your own sonic space, separate from the guitars.

Rounds have, by their very design, more overtones and harmonics that blend with guitars. Flats have less, and therefore put more emphasis on that very place where bass resides.

True that flats aren't going to be for everyone in all situations, and I've already made that point very clear in many of my posts (so I'm not going to qualify that in every statement I make). And of course I am speaking from the point of view of a rocker. I don't play jazz, I don't play anything subtle. My playing (as well as the style of music I play) is about as subtle as a baseball bat to the head.

 

[dvh]

And I really stress all things being equal because if you are running a bass with rounds through a rig that is already clear, tight, punchy, what-have-you, then yes just switching to flats will make a BIG difference in putting you in your own sonic space, separate from the guitars.

Good point. My transition to flats correlates almost directly to the acquisition of of my Markbass LM II.

 

[JustDavid]

Fair clarification.

FWIW I have the TI Jazz Flats on my fretless and GHS Precision Flatwounds on my P. The latter have more tension than the Sunbeams I used to have on there so that is what I'm measuring against.

edit to ask: what are some of the high tension rounds available?

Hey, thanks for hearing it well!! Sometimes . . .

From your post, I gotta say I'm surprised you use TIJFs. They seem the last string for a high-tension fan.

D'Addario XLs range between 133 pounds total tension (35/95 set) to 228 pounds (55/110).

 

[dvh]

I think I like the TI's because when I'm playing my fretless I use more of the style I use with my upright (i.e. walking jazz). With the P Bass I'm usually rockin' or funkin' it up.

 

[JustDavid]

Thanks DVH.

 

[JimmyM]

I wonder how much naivety regarding flatwounds is due to the fact that they can cost up to twice as much rounds?

In my case, I used rounds because I liked the feel and sound better, and because every good bassist I knew told me, "Don't play flats...play rounds." The money thing, I don't think it slows people down because they don't have to change them nearly as often. And there are some folks who play some mighty expensive rounds, too. I think bassists as a whole geniunely like rounds a lot more than flats.

 

[JimmyM]

I would also like to add (regarding Chef's disagreement with me)...

All things being equal, flats will put you more into a place in the mix between the drummer and the guitars than rounds will. I'm not talking about how flats will sound better on a piece of crap bass or rig that already sounds like crap with rounds.

And I really stress all things being equal because if you are running a bass with rounds through a rig that is already clear, tight, punchy, what-have-you, then yes just switching to flats will make a BIG difference in putting you in your own sonic space, separate from the guitars.

I don't think I agree with that at all, quite honestly. I think what puts you in a good place in the mix is knowing how to place yourself in the mix. I can do it just as easily with rounds as flats. Now what flats DO do (he said "do do," heh heh) is give you a bigger bottom end, cut down on overtones, and cut down on high end response. But that in and of itself won't prevent you from getting lost in a mix. You can do that as easily with flats as with rounds, too.

 

[Sundogue]

I think what puts you in a good place in the mix is knowing how to place yourself in the mix. I can do it just as easily with rounds as flats.

Knowing how to place yourself in the mix while achieving everything rounds give you, that flats can't AND hearing those differences in a live band mix are two different things.

Now what flats DO do (he said "do do," heh heh) is give you a bigger bottom end, cut down on overtones, and cut down on high end response.

And thus flats make it possible to achieve that separation between you and the guitards. Not everyone wants that separation. Some want to sound like a lower tuned guitar and still hold down the bottom. It's a compromise. Rounds allow you to do a bit of both. And I do believe rounds are a compromise between being heard like a guitar AND also playing the bass role. Cool with me. Been there, done that. So yes I know it's doable.

But I feel that Flats do a better job of providing that solid foundation, and giving better separation They do it better than rounds, precisely because they lose that guitar sound. They make a bass sound like a bass.

It's kind of like that debate about how "close" solid state bass amps can cop that all tube amp sound. Yeah...close, but not close enough.

If one doesn't want their bass to sound distinctly like a bass, then by all means string it up with rounds. If I ever get a Rick again, it will have rounds and I'll love that bright piano-like tone that makes it sound more like a lower tuned guitar. It's all cool.

It's OK fellas...most bass players suffer from multiple personality disorder. I myself am a drummer trapped in a guitar player's body. So it's only natural that I would gravitate to playing bass. Over the years I've just played on my lower tuned guitar, all the while wanting to play drums. Flats alleviated much of the symptoms and I now feel comfortable being a bass player. Now if I could just dump my SS amp and get a tube amp, the operation will be complete.

 

[monsterthompson]

Well, I took a shot at rehearsal this week with the Corvette $$ strung up with La Bella Deep Talkin' flats and I was pleased. I found myself going from having a very mid-range sound to punch through the mix to having a much more low-end sound. I went from running my M6 Carbine with the mids boosted and a 212 cab to running the mids cut and a 115 cab, with the highs rolled almost completely off. I felt the bump without it getting boomy. While I didn't like the flat-pick sound in the low-volume livingroom test, the full volume band test showed more desireable results.

On the downside, there were a few points where I noticed the increased surface area, although a smoother contact point, created some additional stiction. It wasn't bad and I was able to adjust to it, but it did catch me off guard at first.

I've gotta say, I love the feel of the flats, and the Corvett $$ has the nicest feeling neck I've ever played. The combo is dead sexy.

 

[Sundogue]

Well, I took a shot at rehearsal this week with the Corvette $$ strung up with La Bella Deep Talkin' flats and I was pleased. I found myself going from having a very mid-range sound to punch through the mix to having a much more low-end sound. I went from running my M6 Carbine with the mids boosted and a 212 cab to running the mids cut and a 115 cab, with the highs rolled almost completely off. I felt the bump without it getting boomy. While I didn't like the flat-pick sound in the low-volume livingroom test, the full volume band test showed more desireable results.

On the downside, there were a few points where I noticed the increased surface area, although a smoother contact point, created some additional stiction. It wasn't bad and I was able to adjust to it, but it did catch me off guard at first.

I've gotta say, I love the feel of the flats, and the Corvett $$ has the nicest feeling neck I've ever played. The combo is dead sexy.

Yeah, a lot of people are kind of surprised by what they describe as a 'stickiness' to flats. Flats are smoother than rounds and rounds' feel rougher due to the raised winding, but that winding is more rounded.

Flats' windings are flat, but they are windings nonetheless. and there are fine gaps in between the windings that kind of 'catch' your finger a bit.

Some of that 'stickiness' is in your head, because we assume flats should feel perfectly smooth, so feeling anything is a surprise. That feeling will subside for two reasons...You will get used to it, and those tiny little gaps between the windings will fill in quicker with grime, grease, etc. than the gaps on rounds.

They'll be feeling slicker in no time.

And it is quite an eye opener to play something by yourself and then with the band. First gig I had with flats after I made the leap was a revelation to just how good the rhythm section could sound. Nothing else changed but the strings and it was an immediate sense of power and control of the low end with the drummer.

Wait until you hear the difference on a gig...especially if you have an opportunity to hear it out front through the PA instead of your rig.

 

[JoeyZ]

I'm going over old ground as I've already asked this but cannot seem to find any responses or even the original question.

Sooo, What say you in regards to Flats through a distortion pedal?
It'd be great to align myself with the drummer and according to most of you, flats seem to do that...BUT what happens to that fatter, Thumping signal when it's sent through something like...oh, i don't know...My Russian Big Muff?

 

[sixway]

Yeah, a lot of people are kind of surprised by what they describe as a 'stickiness' to flats. Flats are smoother than rounds and rounds' feel rougher due to the raised winding, but that winding is more rounded. To me, roundwounds have almost a ball-bearing ease of play after playing flats.

Flats' windings are flat, but they are windings nonetheless. and there are fine gaps in between the windings that kind of 'catch' your finger a bit.

Some of that 'stickiness' is in your head, because we assume flats should feel perfectly smooth, so feeling anything is a surprise. That feeling will subside for two reasons...You will get used to it, and those tiny little gaps between the windings will fill in quicker with grime, grease, etc. than the gaps on rounds.

They'll be feeling slicker in no time.

My take on flats being "sticky" comes from there being no gaps between the windings, like rounds have. As you pluck a roundwound, your finger tip is coming in contact with about 50% less surface as compared to the surface of flats. With flats, there is just more surface to come in contact with.

As a flatwound loses its "shine" and oxidizes over time, it grips a bit more. That's why it's advisable to start playing with clean hands if you can, and wipe your strings when done. Because of the humidity where I live, I use DR Stringlife to help keep the strings sealed and slick, and prefer if over everything else I've tried.

I find that because of the "grip" factor of flats, I adjust my volume up, and play with a lighter touch, which allows me to dig in against the band if the noise levels go up, and you know they will....

 

[Sundogue]

I'm going over old ground as I've already asked this but cannot seem to find any responses or even the original question.

Sooo, What say you in regards to Flats through a distortion pedal?
It'd be great to align myself with the drummer and according to most of you, flats seem to do that...BUT what happens to that fatter, Thumping signal when it's sent through something like...oh, i don't know...My Russian Big Muff?

I don't normally use a distortion effect and don't have a nice Russian muff lying around waiting for me to play with, though I did try to use the distortion on my Zoom B2.

I'm not a big fan of distortion (other than naturally overdriven tube heads), but the distortion effect sounded kind of cool. I'm using Chromes and even without using a distortion effect I can get a nice grindy tone by digging in hard with a pick. With the distortion effect I think it sounds good, and in some ways gives flats more of a roundwound sound...like it makes the flats growl more (but with more attack...perhaps it's that 'thud' of the flats combined with the distortion).

That's about the best I can offer you in way of an opinion.

 

[Sundogue]

My take on flats being "sticky" comes from there being no gaps between the windings, like rounds have. As you pluck a roundwound, your finger tip is coming in contact with about 50% less surface as compared to the surface of flats. With flats, there is just more surface to come in contact with.

As a flatwound loses its "shine" and oxidizes over time, it grips a bit more. That's why it's advisable to start playing with clean hands if you can, and wipe your strings when done. Because of the humidity where I live, I use DR Stringlife to help keep the strings sealed and slick, and prefer if over everything else I've tried.

I find that because of the "grip" factor of flats, I adjust my volume up, and play with a lighter touch, which allows me to dig in against the band if the noise levels go up, and you know they will....

Interesting. I have older flats (TI's) that just seem to get smoother feeling over time. But I'm sure there is going to be individualized sensitivity to the feel of flats, as well as the pH balance of the individual affecting it. I live in a pretty dry area (in winter anyway) and my hands aren't all that greasy/oily...and I do play with clean hands and wipe my strings down too. I've never had too much problem with flats feeling sticky though.

Yes, using some kind of string cleaner/coating will help keep them feeling newer/smoother.