I'll answer that with a question of my own...
You are lost on a deserted island with two incredibly beautiful women who are just as much into each other as they are into you.
Which one do you pick?
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Confessions of a Flatwound convert...
- Thread starter Sundogue
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I'll answer that with a question of my own...
You are lost on a deserted island with two incredibly beautiful women who are just as much into each other as they are into you.
Which one do you pick?
Since bass players are more analytical about their gear, I would think he would be the Professor.
Either way...my point was BOTH should be strung with flats. But I'm biased, being the Flatwound Ambassador and all.
Considering going to the lower tension TI at this point. I had a breakthrough last night. I noticed that my "poor" technique has me more prone to using the surface of my finger that is oposite my nail rather than my fingertip. I noticed that with that flatter surface of the finger, there is more flesh and thus more "cushion" so it is harder to make a solid contact with the string and the fret. I've noticed a "clack" which appears to be caused by the string not being fully and firmly depressed, allowing it to vibrate away from the fret and then reconnect. Since the finger tip is a firmer contact point, changing my technique appears to reduce the likelihood of the "clack." I'm now thinking that having lower tension strings might help as a crutch with my poor and sloppy current technique until I can improve it. I came from being a guitarist, so I don't think having the lighter tension will be a problem for me to adjust to. I know that the way to solve this is with practice, but I think I might consider taking a lean on the crutch of lower tension strings as a good excuse to try another set of flats.
I don't now, and never have, fretted with my fingertips (as in the very tip). I that part of my finger that's about halfway between the tip and the full pad (based on where my callouses are). Playing a 5 string, and also various parts of songs that require some string muting, chording, etc., I'd never be able to play half the things I do using only fingertips to fret with.
Fretting a bass isn't hard to do no matter what string tension you use. String tension tends to affect the plucking hand more than the fretting hand. Action affects the fretting hand more. If I were you, I'd keep the higher tension and raise the action (A LOT) and practice as often as possible. Once that gets easy, lower your action to what feels more comfortable. It's really just a matter of hand and finger strength to push the string down. Avoid exercise toys. Exercise on your bass.
Some guys like playing with a light touch. I'm more from the Jamerson school. I read somewhere that he purposely used heavy strings with extremely high action so nobody would touch his bass. I'd bet I could play it and I don't have 'sausage finger / carpenter' hands either. Most people see my hands and think I play piano.
You only have to press the strings down enough to make contact with the fret. I'm guessing any noise you get is more from not having the timing down between your fretting and plucking hands. There are times when I'm playing more complex lines for the first time that I get clacking or choppy, poor notes and it's more a timing issue.
I used to always use the tip so I could be more precise, but now I use the tip or the pad depending on what I am doing. Either way, I don't have a problem making good solid contact between the string and the fret.
True. It's all about technique, not strength.
I'm going to disagree with that one. Different strokes for different folks, but... Playing the bass does not require lots of strength. As long as you make sure to play right on or behind the fret, you don't need much pressure, even with high action. If you concentrate too much on using strength instead of technique, you run the risk of wrist/tendon injuries down the line.
In addition to the timing, make sure you are not fretting in the middle of the frets (which is probably more OK on guitar), but as close to the fret as possible.
Took the Sadowsky with Chromes to rehearsal for the first time, and... IT RULED!!!
The drummer previously liked my sound as bright as possible, so I was afraid he would miss the high end, but he loved it as he (and I) could hear each note more clearly, and my overall volume seemed more even across the range of the bass. I was able to turn up more without getting in the way of the vocals or guitar. My bass felt more powerful and thick than ever, and I play almost exclusively on the bridge pickup. A little bass boost on my on board preamp, and wow... Thick, articulate, and just enough high end.
I found myself playing differently also, since I had more attack and definition than with the LowRiders.
As an added plus, the guitarist, drummer and I had a great discussion about frequency ranges and keeping out of each others' way.
The drummer previously liked my sound as bright as possible, so I was afraid he would miss the high end, but he loved it as he (and I) could hear each note more clearly, and my overall volume seemed more even across the range of the bass. I was able to turn up more without getting in the way of the vocals or guitar. My bass felt more powerful and thick than ever, and I play almost exclusively on the bridge pickup. A little bass boost on my on board preamp, and wow... Thick, articulate, and just enough high end.
I found myself playing differently also, since I had more attack and definition than with the LowRiders.
As an added plus, the guitarist, drummer and I had a great discussion about frequency ranges and keeping out of each others' way.
Took the Sadowsky with Chromes to rehearsal for the first time, and... IT RULED!!!
The drummer previously liked my sound as bright as possible, so I was afraid he would miss the high end, but he loved it as he (and I) could hear each note more clearly, and my overall volume seemed more even across the range of the bass. I was able to turn up more without getting in the way of the vocals or guitar. My bass felt more powerful and thick than ever, and I play almost exclusively on the bridge pickup. A little bass boost on my on board preamp, and wow... Thick, articulate, and just enough high end.
I found myself playing differently also, since I had more attack and definition than with the LowRiders.
As an added plus, the guitarist, drummer and I had a great discussion about frequency ranges and keeping out of each others' way.
Very cool. My drummer and I have had that very discussion months ago, before I switched to flats. We tried a variety of things to make the low end tighter and the rhythm section more powerful (which led to the added bonus of upgrading PA components...like two JBLSRX728 subs, each driven by their own QSC 5500 watt power amps!
). But something was still missing.Once I started using the flats on gigs I had the same reaction as you. It wasn't anything other than the string change that just woke me up. Yeah.
Well, it does require more strength than say, playing guitar. I've gotten to the point where if I pick up a guitar I can't even hold a chord without the notes getting all bent out of position. Weenie strings!
I agree you shouldn't be overdoing it and one certainly does not need to 'hamfist' the neck to play bass. But if he is having an issue with fretting (specifically pressing down hard enough to make good contact with the fret) then I would say, yes strength may very well be an issue. Action helps a lot. The higher the tension and the further you need to press the strings, the stronger your hands need to be.
Someone who plays lightly with light gauge strings and very low action, more than likely would have a harder time playing my basses.
Sun, you are right about the timing of the pluck vs. the fret being part of the issue. What I'm dealing with is the sensory indication that I "feel" like I have fretted the string before I have fully fretted it. I don't have to be on the tip to fully fret the string, but I noticed that when I use the meatier part of the finger to fret, my brain "thinks" I've fretted the note and am ready to pluck before I have and am, causing the timing difference that results in the clank. I've noticed that with higher tension and action, I tend to hammer the string down harder which can also generate noice against the fret. I'm thinking that my natural tendencies and years of conditioning might lend themselves more to a light string and low action style.
To work on fixing this bad habit, I sat down with my bass plugged into a small guitar amp and cut the bass and cranked the trebble so that every time I "clanked" it became extra noticeable. I cringed each time I clanked, but I found that it forced me to be more considerate regarding my technique, and after only a few minutes of this, I found that I was able to refine my technique to utilize the brighter sound without getting the unwanted noise. Imagine that, fixing tone with technique practice and not EQ settings I'm still considering the lighter strings as a crutch for when I get in a live setting and start jumping around more and concentrating on placement less.
To work on fixing this bad habit, I sat down with my bass plugged into a small guitar amp and cut the bass and cranked the trebble so that every time I "clanked" it became extra noticeable. I cringed each time I clanked, but I found that it forced me to be more considerate regarding my technique, and after only a few minutes of this, I found that I was able to refine my technique to utilize the brighter sound without getting the unwanted noise. Imagine that, fixing tone with technique practice and not EQ settings
I'm still considering the lighter strings as a crutch for when I get in a live setting and start jumping around more and concentrating on placement less.
Wish I had started on this thread earlier, as it's hard to read through it all now, but for me, flats really only have a place in a few types of music that I seldom play. They come across a bit anemic in some settings. I don't dislike them, but just view them as a tool of the trade, a tool that I just seldom need. But, this thread does peak my curiosity a bit. Perhaps I'll string up the 44-02 with some Chromes again and see how things go?
I just put Chromes on my Decade, and when my other JO shows up, one of the JO's will get Chromes too. Very nice strings. Love the tension.
I can appreciate that feeling. For me now, it's the opposite...rounds seldom have a place for me in the music I do.
It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Personally I still prefer the sound of rounds as far as what I want my tone to be. But in the context of what the band needs for it's sound and what is best for the rhythm section, flats are what is needed.
If I ever join a Yes tribute band, I'll buy a Rick and string it up with the brightest rounds I can get.
I certainly see where you are coming from, and I'm not sure I've really tried flats within the contextual perspective you are applying. It seems very valid, and that's why I'm curious. Thanks for sharing.I can appreciate that feeling. For me now, it's the opposite...rounds seldom have a place for me in the music I do.
It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Personally I still prefer the sound of rounds as far as what I want my tone to be. But in the context of what the band needs for it's sound and what is best for the rhythm section, flats are what is needed.
If I ever join a Yes tribute band, I'll buy a Rick and string it up with the brightest rounds I can get.
Despite this being a long thread (with lots of the typical tangents and hijacks), it's been a good discussion on the benefits of flatwounds...and it specifically addresses the benefits of flats within the context of bass and it's role in the rhythm section in a live gig setting. The merits of flats in "Madison Square Living Room" is a pointless discussion.
Honestly, I still love rounds when playing alone. But playing alone for me only means working on bettering myself as a bass player or learning new material, so really tone is irrelevant in that context.
While rounds have that really beautiful piano-like brilliance I love, much of that tone just gets washed out by guitars and keyboards, leaving me in this never ending battle to "cut through the mix" scenario. And it became a cycle of boosting my mids, cutting my lows and engaging in a battle for my own sonic space with the guitars. Since rounds have more overtones and harmonic content, as well as more sustain, it is almost impossible for a bass player using rounds to remove the bass from the guitar's space.
Flats, having a quicker decay and more fundamental...essentially making a bass sound more like a bass (not to be confused with "dull" sounding) help the bass to sit down in the mix more, and removing it more from the guitars sonic space and giving the bass more of it's own room where it sits with the drums better.
Lots of people say rounds do it just as well and that it's all in the bass player's hands or EQ'ing. I agree that rounds can do it, but I feel strongly that Flats do it better.
If you want to browse through the thread and get the most out of it, just read my posts and ignore everyone else's. jk
I don't know, Sundogue, now that I've got the SVT back, I'm starting to miss rounds. It felt like the flats went too far in the other direction tonight and I wasn't getting any attack at all. I don't want to give up on flats entirely, but I also don't want to cart two basses to every gig. I have enough problems doubling on upright without a second electric complicating things. So I might be bailing on you. For now, I'll just be the roundwound devil on your shoulder. 
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