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Controlling stage volume

J

jar546

Dec 14, 2006
208
0
#1
I have a great band with lots of talent that I sit in with and play bass every now and then. Older guys, very experienced with the same problem.

They only have 1 monitor that they use for the singer/bass player and the guitar volume wars always starts towards the end of the 1st set. The 2nd set is louder than the 1st set and the 3rd set is totally out of control.

No sound man as the drummer has control of the PA but the stage equipment the guitarists bring is only controlled by the guitarist themselves. Even the drummer plays harder/louder as the night goes on.

All of the beautifully intricate guitar solos are lost in the mix and they don't even realize it.

What is the best setup as far as a PA system and feeding the PA so that if they hire a sound man, he can control the volume.

Usually small to medium venues.

Thanks.
 
#3
smogg said:
If they can't leave the volume knob alone on their amps, hiring a sound man won't do any good.
Click to expand...

That is exactly my concern. It is as though they all need direct boxes with no volume control other than pedals. I am thinking that if each guy has a monitor that has the volume controlle by the sound man then they will be less likely to turn up if they are getting blasted by their own sound.

This is a crappy situation and I am not sure what it will take to fix it.
 
#4
Everyone but the offending loud person(s) should just keep turning down. It will get to the point where the offending person will say "I can't hear you." You say "Really, neither can I."

They should get the hint.
 
#6
+1 on additional monitors, especially for the vocals.

The bass player should get a wireless setup (mic/bass) for sound checks. Then leave the volumes alone.

Maybe the one of the guitarists can do the same. Sound check at the beginning of each set.

I think the ears go numb after while so each one thinks they have to turn out. They should all get some ear plugs. Maybe get a db meter so they can check sound levels at the end of each set.

Seems like they need a sound guy.
 
#7
There's no way that someone on stage can adjust the mix as well as a soundman situated well away from the band. I had to play soundman on a few occasions whilst playing instrument(s) at the same time and when I watched video recordings of our play afterwards, I realised I was much louder than I intended to be.

And a soundman can lower an instrument's sound to a desired level, regardless of what the player does with his volume control!
 
#8
tobie said:
And a soundman can lower an instrument's sound to a desired level, regardless of what the player does with his volume control!
Click to expand...
that is not even remotely true unless there are no amps on stage.

i've mixed bands where shutting the entire mixing board down didn't make anything quieter (it just made the vocals disappear).
 
#9
mpm32 said:
Everyone but the offending loud person(s) should just keep turning down. It will get to the point where the offending person will say "I can't hear you." You say "Really, neither can I."

They should get the hint.
Click to expand...
this is exactly what i had to do to get everyone else to turn down. i never said anything, but i just got it in my mind that if i turned down to where i couldn't hear it, the rest of the band might miss it and turn down a little just so they could hear it. never fails.

also, you can't underestimate your own role in volume wars as a bassist. most amateur bassists have no clue how loud they are in the house because they always want to hear themselves over the band instead of just trying to get a good mix with everyone. get used to hearing your bass in the mix instead of being way louder like you're playing along with a cd.
 
#10
i got to wonder how does the drummer get to hear the P.A. levels from the back of the stage, might as well have a guess at the settings.
You have to work on your stage sound as a whole band, do the drums first, then add the bass to the right level for the drums, then add the guitars- checking rhythm and lead levels, then add the vocals. From there work on the front P.A. levels, and when there is a good balance.....NO ONE TOUCHES THE LEVELS !!!:scowl: If they can't agree on that, do a live recording out front so the band can hear what the crowd is hearing, and get someone independant to set everyones levels.
 
#13
Typical conversation / complaint:

Me: Can you hear yourself in the monitor?

Guitarist / Vocalist: Yeah, volume and balance sound great!

After the first song:

Guitarist / Vocalist: #@*&...I can't hear myself!

Me: Well, the monitor didn't break. What changed all of a sudden?

Guitarist / Vocalist: The guitarist next to me started playing.

Me: You're standing next to him...tell him to turn the f*** down.

I really need to line all these guys into the board and feed their instruments back into the monitors. We should be able to strike a volume balance betweenst the monitors and backline amps. Having one's back to an amplifier really skews perception of volume.

Riis
 
#14
mpm32 and JimmyM are exactly right.

If they turn up, you turn down.

If they say "You need to turn up", you say "No, you need to turn down".

If they give you a hard time about it, tell them you're going to keep turning down every time they turn up and when your volume's gone, so are you.

You make it sound like they're not unreasonable guys. I'm sure if you just voice your concerns they'd be cool about it. They just might not have ever thought about it before.
 
#15
My guitarist brings me a mic cable during setup and I think to myself "what's this for?" I have tried to use a volume pie chart to explain our situation. I say we have "X" amount of volume that entire band can use." If you use 50% of the pie for your volume that only leaves 50% to be divided between vocals, bass, and drums.
 
#19
M0ses said:
I thought you said that they were experienced??
Click to expand...

....which means it will be all that much more difficult to instill any change. You would think somewhere along the line that one of the guitarists would've said "gee, night after night, I can't hear myself play. I think we should look into it". More than likely, you'll be met with "but we've always done it like this".

Riis
 
#20
It's a more complicated setup, but if you use the effects send from each instrument amp to the PA and then send the instrument signal back from the PA to the stage amp the sound engineer can control amp stage stage volume from the board.
From a pure sound control standpoint having everyone go direct (no stage amps) and getting the drummer an electronic kit so everything goes through monitors & PA is the best solution. There is nothing loud on stage (like trying to cover an acoustic drum kit) but your monitors & PA need to be good enough/powerful enough to deliver the bass, drums (especially the kick), etc. with enough punch that you don't sound like karaoke tracks. Which also means getting the guitar player to give up his 100 watt tube combo that he HAS to run 'dimed out' to get his sound.
 

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