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Country Bass, something infuriating!

#21
basstoven said:
Lets start this off by saying Country Western is possibly the my favorite genre of music. I only listen to three stations when im driving by myself. Country, Classic Rock, and Jazz, while the dial is on country most of the time. Like wise my wife listens to Country just as much and she also listens to top 40. Any ways you have great guitar player like Keith Urban, and fiddlers who can jam the hell out. Thinking Charlie Daniels and Allison Kraus. Most of the bass i hear (is usualy mixed to low) is just a root-fifth half note pattern.:crying: Is there any country bassists who lay down a good groove? I know the "song is king" and not to "step on the singer." Bella fleck and the fleck tone features victor wooten and their a blue grass band. Country western has roots in blue grass so why can't the bass transfer?
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the ablility to play a simple, great feeling root 5th root, lock in with the drummer on a country double time feel like Folsum Prison Blues is the mark of a seasoned vet....out of a 40 song set of classic rock, modern, classic country it's the feel that i question the most in moy own playing...to make it drive and swing just right, the length of the notes short or long ..there's more there than meets the eye!
 
#22
The fact that you don't hear a groove in country doesn't mean it isn't there. There is WAY more going on when a great player plays a simple country bass line than just someone "hitting" a root and a 5th. Tell ya what - come to town, sit next to one of the heavy drummers, and change the feel of a tune completely by almost imperceptibly altering note lengths, or putting your attacks exactly where the kick will make them speak. No offense, but I'm bettin' you'd fold like an old wallet. Most do.

Picasso did simple line drawings from time to time; were they not art because they weren't complicated? Country, played well, is the haiku of bass playing.

And regarding mixes, you might want to invest in some better speakers for you car - the bass track pretty much saturates current country. Many of the top session cats in Nashville are friends of mine (I've been here 27 years). They can play. I mean PLAY. Larry Carlton wouldn't have Michael Rhodes out on the road with him if all Michael could muster was root/fifth. Likewise Steve Mackey with Delbert McClinton, and on and on and on. The busy guys are busy because they follow the credo: "Serve The Song." Noodling around in the low end would ruin a country track. Country bass is about foundation and feel, not flash. There's incredible groove going on in much of what you're hearing on the radio. You're just not getting it.
 
#24
basstoven said:
Lets start this off by saying Country Western is possibly the my favorite genre of music. I only listen to three stations when im driving by myself. Country, Classic Rock, and Jazz, while the dial is on country most of the time. Like wise my wife listens to Country just as much and she also listens to top 40. Any ways you have great guitar player like Keith Urban, and fiddlers who can jam the hell out. Thinking Charlie Daniels and Allison Kraus. Most of the bass i hear (is usualy mixed to low) is just a root-fifth half note pattern.:crying: Is there any country bassists who lay down a good groove?
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Are you serious?! You listen to Keith Urban and other modern Country artists and all you're hearing is root-5?!
Uh...go listen again. You're either listening to older Country or you're not listening very closely at all to the new stuff, IMO.

Allison Krauss = root/5 yeah, but she's Bluegrass. The modern Country guys are doing more Rock style bass lines from what I've been hearing. Like this.
This one might be rather simple, but I think it's more than just root/5.
I'd say the same for this Invalid Link Removed.
Maybe you need a better car stereo. :bassist:
 
#26
Boof said:
The fact that you don't hear a groove in country doesn't mean it isn't there. There is WAY more going on when a great player plays a simple country bass line than just someone "hitting" a root and a 5th. Tell ya what - come to town, sit next to one of the heavy drummers, and change the feel of a tune completely by almost imperceptibly altering note lengths, or putting your attacks exactly where the kick will make them speak. No offense, but I'm bettin' you'd fold like an old wallet. Most do.

Picasso did simple line drawings from time to time; were they not art because they weren't complicated? Country, played well, is the haiku of bass playing.

And regarding mixes, you might want to invest in some better speakers for you car - the bass track pretty much saturates current country. Many of the top session cats in Nashville are friends of mine (I've been here 27 years). They can play. I mean PLAY. Larry Carlton wouldn't have Michael Rhodes out on the road with him if all Michael could muster was root/fifth. Likewise Steve Mackey with Delbert McClinton, and on and on and on. The busy guys are busy because they follow the credo: "Serve The Song." Noodling around in the low end would ruin a country track. Country bass is about foundation and feel, not flash. There's incredible groove going on in much of what you're hearing on the radio. You're just not getting it.
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+1,000 This was easily the best post in this thread. "Serve The Song" should be the credo in all genres of music. Anything more is adolescent, narcissistic, self-masturbation. Sadly, nowadays even singers don't get it. Absolutely awful, self-serving divas are hailed as great singers by ingrates.
 
#30
yodedude2 said:
let's not confuse country with western. they are 2 seperate genres. if you want to hear the groove, check out some western swing ('western' for short). it's probably not on your radio...might start with asleep at the wheel and junior brown. cheers, ron
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This is it. Swing players get more creative license, and I prefer old school vintage tunes for this kind of playing. Any time you get to walk the dog and throw in some triplets, it gets interesting. Contemporary bassists are more like rock players, lots of root riding, I-V stuff.

Willie's Place XM Sirius 13.
 
#31
1. If can't be satisfied playing simply as a bass player and your main interest is Country-ish, you should probably buy a Telecaster and get your kicks with that.
2. The only "country" on the radio in Buffalo that I know of is strictly corporate top-40 stuff.
3. If you want to hear some inspiring (and perhaps ear-stretching) country music, you should check the schedule at Sportsmen's Tavern on Amherst between Military and Grant. The Wheel's been there a couple times, and they have a nice mix of local and touring bands. Music is first there.
 
#32
This whole "what they'll let you play" or "how much license you have" thing is one of the most inane bits of lore in all the music world. I've seen several Paisley sessions go down, and watched Michael cut quite a bit. Nobody sits over Kevin or Michael counting notes. They know - and play - exactly what's right for the song, what makes the song just that much better.

When you play a session, when you're hired to make a record, you go in to play IN THE STYLE of the artist. To SUPPORT the artist and the song with your tracks. I just do small-time sessions, and I wouldn't DREAM of playing something on a track that was designed to show off what I can do. That's the mark of a rank amateur. Friends who do the big stuff ALL have that attitude; they want to make it fit. They want to contribute to a perfect little piece of musical craft. For many of us, that's a lot more satisfying (and a much better career builder) than making sure everyone knows you can play fast 16ths over a tritone sub.

Yes, you absolutely can make half notes groove. It's a delicate skill. If you can't hear it when it's done (or can't yet hear it), it's a pretty sure bet that you have a ways to go before you can pull it off yourself.

At least as much as touch, tone, and time, the ability and desire to play what fits stylistically, supports the vocalist and serves the song is what separates the pros from the wannabees. If you're desperate to play a lot of complex lines, then put together a jazz group, or make your amazing solo record (most of us who play country seriously play other styles too), or just keep plugging away in your bedroom and your garage band. Country is about the song, the lyrics, and the vocalist. In that style, we're here to lay the foundation. If you do it well, it can be very, very satisfying. And it WILL groove, though not necessarily like an R&B or funk track. Again, the fact that you can't grasp the groove doesn't mean it isn't there.
 
#34
I play a lot of country, and really holding down that 1 / 5 groove for the whole song is hard! It's not hard to play, but it's hard to keep up, and it's hard to give it the right feel, and not let up on that feel. I'm in Austin, so I get a lot of country, and I see A LOT of bass players struggle with simple country or western music.

Country is the ultimate "pocket" music. Even more than Motown and all that groove stuff that makes people talk about "the pocket."

Country music is for dancing (at least that was it's intended purpose). The bass, the kick, and the snare are letting a room full of people know when and how to move. The feel and the groove are all right there, and people dance to that. If you don't want to dance, then you can listen to the words or the solos.

FWIW, Brad Paisley and Keith Urban are pop musicians. Most of what is "country" music now days is pop music recorded by the Nashville machine.
 
#35
I may get myself in trouble with this post. I'm a blues player who enjoys swing, including western swing. Marshall Tucker's This old Cowboy has a great groove for instance. I agree with a lot of posts that point out the need to play to the song, and a lot of country music (as well as blues BTW) is best served by simple, straight forward bass lines. Bella Fleck's music is heavily influenced by improv jazz. There will always be artists that can cross and mix genres effectively, thank God. My suggestion is to start looking for those artists.
 
#36
You know, the more I think of it, the OP does have a point. I enjoy the "traditional" role of bass in the many genres that could be loosely grouped under the "country" umbrella - both listening and trying to play. However, there seems to be an unspoken rule that the rhythm section must stick to the traditional role wheras the lead instruments are freer to mix it up. Why is it that what's acceptable in the lead role has evolved but not the bass? (and by evolved I mean simply changed gradually over time)
 
#37
Because all the melodic and extended harmonic information has to have something to sit on, to contrast against, or it just floats without saying anything. In these styles, we provide that bed, that "field" that the melodic information can be heard standing out from.
 
#38
hennessybass said:
Country music is for dancing (at least that was it's intended purpose). The bass, the kick, and the snare are letting a room full of people know when and how to move. The feel and the groove are all right there, and people dance to that. If you don't want to dance, then you can listen to the words or the solos.

FWIW, Brad Paisley and Keith Urban are pop musicians. Most of what is "country" music now days is pop music recorded by the Nashville machine.
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+1

Our drummer has a jazz background and sometimes he needs to be reminded not to dump a lot of drummer-impressing fills into songs when the dance floor is full. I've told him more than once that it hurts the song and sometimes confuses the dancers. Similar to keyboards and/or guitarists walking all over songs that start with bass only(i.e. My Girl).
 
#39
Johnny Crab said:
+1

Our drummer has a jazz background and sometimes he needs to be reminded not to dump a lot of drummer-impressing fills into songs when the dance floor is full. I've told him more than once that it hurts the song and sometimes confuses the dancers. Similar to keyboards and/or guitarists walking all over songs that start with bass only(i.e. My Girl).
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OMG... I think we might have the same drummer!!! Is yours named Josh?
 
#40
Boof said:
Because all the melodic and extended harmonic information has to have something to sit on, to contrast against, or it just floats without saying anything. In these styles, we provide that bed, that "field" that the melodic information can be heard standing out from.
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+100 Well put, sir.

The most awesome solo in the world without that "field" is just some dude wanking out of time and out of tune. That's cool, but I don't want to hear it. I want to hear a song. I want to hear a dude solo in the context of a song.

When everyone in the band decides that they should take a lead voice, then the music dies. It becomes cluttered and hard to listen to, and people start calling it fusion, and then everyone stops listening to it, and then it develops a reputation of "a bunch of dudes all playing different songs at the same time." ...wait, are we talking about Jazz or Country?

People like to listen to music and dance... have since the beginning of time. Don't go and **** that up by thinking you are special.

There is an art to playing in a band, and It's a lot harder and requires a lot more skill that just being an awesome player on your own. It's easy to pop and slap your bass on a youtube video in your bedroom when there is no live drummer there taking up your space with his pops and slaps. You add in a couple more dudes to the mix, and you see how things could start to sound like $h*T.

Country players know how to play in a band... they know how to take turns, and more important, they know when not to take a turn. That's a lost art in this modern day and age where everyone thinks they are special and they deserve to be herd. Lose your ego, and play the song.
 

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