Double Bass Curved v.s. Collapsed Fingers

[lcpierce]

I’m an avid supporter of teaching students to play with curved fingers when they’re first starting out. I believe it helps to build a strong foundation to work with later on.

However, I would be lying if I said I never played with collapsed or flat fingers. Sometimes it’s intentional (like when I want a fatter vibrato sound, for example) and sometimes it’s not (when I’m playing an awkward double stop or finger pattern that contorts my hand, it can happen).

I find it interesting that collapsed fingers sort of comes full circle as you get more advanced as a player. Like I said, I teach my students to play with curved fingers at first to help with accuracy, agility, and to prevent any unnecessary tension in the hand. Once their technique is at a place where they can experiment with more "out of the ordinary" techniques, I like to introduce the idea of playing with collapsed fingers to get a specific sound they might be looking for.

I’m curious about your thoughts on playing with curved vs collapsed fingers and what/how you teach your students?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Funny you should mention this, as I have a section devoted to this very topic in my latest video on thumb position technique. There, I present collapsed fingers as one of two options with many variations in between. I feel the same about the subject in the lower positions.

Obviously, there are going to be some differences in ideology based on the differences between a primarily arco concept versus a primarily pizz concept. I won't attempt to speak for arco set, but for the pizz set, there are two basic issues that I run into often:
1) A collapsed finger is often creating the stop more on the pad than a curved finger, and as such sounds different (some thoughts on tips vs pads and the physics involved in an article I wrote several years ago can be found Link Removed). Tips are a clearer sound, but sometimes also a thinner one. Jazz bassists often desire the "growl" effect of playing with pads, especially on the lower strings.
2) A collapsed finger, for many of the reasons described in the article above, requires more leverage or force to keep the stop closed.

The issue of force and closed stops is a big difference between arco and pizz playing, since when playing with a bow a stop that is not full or flags for a moment can be "fixed" with the bow, whereas anything less than a full stop in pizz playing requires that the string be restruck to get the string vibrating the way the player wants it to. For this reason, I've always felt that pizz players who get a full bodied sound tend to play with a bit more left hand weight/force/leverage etc. in general because bad stops can't be fixed easily, so the bassists tend to play with slightly more force than needed to make sure their stops are solid. When playing with the bow, I often hear bass teachers advocate using only as much left hand pressure as needed to press the string down and no more. My experience in teaching classical players in the pizz style has borne this out; the students will ask why their sound isn't as resonant as mine on the same instrument, and I'll place a finger on top of their stopping finger and add more force to make a "deeper stop" to answer the question. Many of them end up coming to the realization that it's a slightly different paradigm for the left hand, but usually make a global adjustment in short order that addresses the issue.

So I don't want to take over the thread with this line of thinking, but I think that it is important for the notion of collapsed fingers to be addressed as an overall part of the left hand paradigm for all bassists rather than something to be avoided at all costs, much in the way that running on the ball of the foot without the heel is one aspect of running; it's very ineffective for distance running and leads to all manner of injuries, but essential for sprinting short distances in a single direction.

 

[neilG]

I think its a flaw. I haven't found an instance where it's more efficient than playing with rounded fingers. There are any number of bassists who play really well with collapsed fingers, but I'm firmly convinced they would be even better had they not embodied that in their technique. There are times when I'll collapse fingers to barre strings or make a really difficult fingering work, but only then.

 

[Tom Lane]

I understand what you're saying but... I think Chris is right. I've watched live performances intently over the past few years from John Goldsby, Chris Fitzgerald, Lynn Seaton, Rufus Reid, David Friesen, John Clayton and others, and I gotta say, they are all of the "do as I say, not as I do" camp, except, maybe, all of them, because they're such experienced teachers that none of them tell you to do anything but get the right tone at the right time with the intonation your ear hears. I've watched them commit every sin known to Simandl and make it work great. It brings me back to the wisdom of Lynn Seaton's response when a student asked him which fingerings they should master and he responded "All of them." Damn straight. As Chris Fitzgerald wrote, "it's not the fingering, go for the pitch you hear in your ear."

Don't get me wrong, I was trained Simandl and I usually use my nice curved fingers, except when I don't... because it doesn't serve the music to do so. And I find I'm watching NHOP videos more and more. If your technique gets in the way of your timing and/or intonation, it's not the correct technique.

 

[lcpierce]

Funny you should mention this, as I have a section devoted to this very topic in my latest video on thumb position technique. There, I present collapsed fingers as one of two options with many variations in between. I feel the same about the subject in the lower positions.

Obviously, there are going to be some differences in ideology based on the differences between a primarily arco concept versus a primarily pizz concept. I won't attempt to speak for arco set, but for the pizz set, there are two basic issues that I run into often:
1) A collapsed finger is often creating the stop on more on the pad than a curved finger, and as such sounds different (some thoughts on tips vs pads and the physics involved in an article I wrote several years ago can be found Link Removed). Tips are a clearer sound, but sometimes also a thinner one. Jazz bassists often desire the "growl" effect of playing with pads, especially on the lower strings.
2) A collapsed finger, for many of the reasons described in the article above, requires more leverage or force to keep the stop closed.

The issue of force and closed stops is a big difference between arco and pizz playing, since when playing with a bow a stop that is not full or flags for a moment can be "fixed" with the bow, whereas anything less than a full stop in pizz playing requires that the string be restruck to get the string vibrating the way the players wants it to. For this reason, I've always felt that pizz players who get a full bodied sound tend to play with a bit more left hand weight/force/leverage etc. in general because bad stops can't be fixed easily, so the bassists tend to play with slightly more force than needed to make sure their stops are solid. When playing with the bow, I often hear bass teachers advocate using only as much left hand pressure as needed to press the string down and no more. My experience in teaching classical players in the pizz style has borne this out; the students will ask why their sound isn't as resonant as mine on the same instrument, and I'll place a finger on top of their stopping finger and add more force to make a "deeper stop" to answer the question. Many of them end up coming to the realization that it's a slightly different paradigm for the left hand, but usually make a global adjustment in short order that addresses the issue.

So I don't want to take over the thread with this line of thinking, but I think that it is important for the notion of collapsed fingers to be addressed as an overall part of the left hand paradigm for all bassists rather than something to be avoided at all costs, much in the way that running on the ball of the foot without the heel is one aspect of running; it's very ineffective for distance running and leads to all manner of injuries, but essential for sprinting short distances in a single direction.

This is really interesting. I enjoyed reading your article! I also appreciated your metaphor to running. There's a time and place for everything.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

There's a time and place for everything.

I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on when you use collapsed fingers and what benefits they might give you when you do

 

[lcpierce]

I would be interested to hear more of your thoughts on when you use collapsed fingers and what benefits they might give you when you do

Overall, I feel like the regular use of collapsed fingers simply slows me down. I really can’t see myself playing the rep I like to play while consistently collapsing my fingers.

However, I do like to use collapse fingers to get a wider, fatter vibrato sound. I don’t do this very often, but in more romantic pieces, it can create a heaviness in the sound that really adds something special.

Lynn Seaton introduced the idea of playing with collapsed fingers in jazz to get a bigger pizz sound, but I only tried it a few times. I’m honestly not sure I was skilled enough in jazz to notice or produce a difference.

I’m sure classical musicians in orchestral settings have used collapsed fingers to get a thicker sound for bass lines, but I never have. I’m not sure that’s much of a thing in the orchestral world (although, if anyone feels otherwise, please correct me).

I do believe there’s a time and place for everything, but more than that, I think flexibility in your technique is important. For some people, using collapsed fingers gets them the vibrato sound they want or the full-bodied pizz they’re looking for. When playing awkward double stops or finger patterns, my 1st finger will sometimes collapse completely. I’ve tried to fix it, but in some instances, I cannot play certain passages without collapsing a finger or two. If that’s what I need to do to play what I want, so be it.

I personally don’t see anything wrong with it as long as it’s not used in excess and doesn’t harm your playing in any way. I don’t believe there’s a right or wrong way to do anything if it gets the job done and you don’t hurt yourself.

 

[Don Kasper]

Missing from this discussion is the way that finger shape, (curved/collapsed), affects how the hand arrives at, departs from, and moves between stopped notes. Most beginning/intermediate bassist's poor intonation, clumsy shifting, and inconsistent tone, (pizz or arco), can be attributed primarily to (collapsed) finger shape, though other factors in the left-side chain may also be contributing.
Curved fingers should be the unconscious, default structure, and emphasizing the importance of this in beginning players, will ensure that it becomes the main tool that is not ever kept in the toolbox, (where the collapsed fingers are stored - for use on very specific tasks, only).
Full Disclosure: Yes, I do occasionally use the "...any means necessary" approach, when the music calls for it.
And then, there's this...(I recommend to my students that they should LISTEN to Mr. Haden, but please don't WATCH or emulate his left hand!).

Finally, I would add that playing arco, (especially), AND pizz, calls for a consistent force to be applied throughout the duration of the note, thru the shift, AND into the next note, especially when (arco) legato is indicated. Many beginning jazz/pizz bassists use the "binary" approach - Grab/Release/Grab/Release..., which is a tool best left in the truck.
Thanks. Great topic.

 

[ctrlzjones]

And then, there's this...(I recommend to my students that they should LISTEN to Mr. Haden, but please don't WATCH or emulate his left hand!).

There you've said something very very truthful. It is mind boggling to me how Charlie Haden could manage to sound so beautiful with *this*, ehem, technique ...
Same goes for Dave Holland, in a way ...
The only explanation I can think of is: 'Sound comes first'; this has been said above and it is seems to be true: if you are able to project a sound in your 'inner imagination' your body will find a way, any way, to make it real. It may take a longer time, but in the end it comes through, because it has an emotional urgency, because it is *you*.

This is also an interesting call for teachers not to work (only) on the right way how something is to be done, but also help the guys/girls to built up that 'inner world' of sound; to disconnect from the world of 'perfection' (that often close to 'failure' and calls the fear of not being 'good enough' taking over) and help them to build up something 'inside' that helps them gaining trust in themselves ...

 

[lcpierce]

Curved fingers should be the unconscious, default structure, and emphasizing the importance of this in beginning players, will ensure that it becomes the main tool that is not ever kept in the toolbox, (where the collapsed fingers are stored - for use on very specific tasks, only).

That is a great way to look at it. That reminds me of Steven King's book, On Writing (which is a great book for all artists, not exclusively writers). In it, he talks about his writing techniques as tools that he takes out of the toolbox. The more common ones on the top level (vocabulary, grammar), elements of style on the next level, and the overall theme (symbols, recurring messages) on the bottom level. I've always thought that applied well to musicians.

 

[neilG]

There's no denying that talent and perseverance can overcome lack of technique. It's arguably the long way around.

 

[Don Kasper]

There can also be long-term health issues related to collapsed fingers/sloppy technique. Those of us who have been at this for a while, know of colleagues (on all instruments) who have suffered the effects of long-term poor mechanical technique. For beginning bassists, it really makes sense to stress the importance of developing a solid technical foundation, (right from the beginning), on an instrument that is so physically demanding.
As to perseverance:

Will somebody please tell Sisyphus to "wake up, and smell the coffee!?"

 

[turf3]

Although the OP discusses "collapsed" fingers as a conscious (or sometimes semi-conscious) choice made for performance reasons, what about those of us whose hand structure just doesn't work that way?

I try to always play with good (traditional) left hand position. But still, in higher positions on the E or A string, with my relatively short fingers, the reach of finger 4 to the string means it's going to collapse sometimes. This is usually a collapse at the first knuckle (the one closest to the palm), while the second knuckle (the one closest to the fingertip) remains convex. It doesn't matter how much I work to train my hand not to do this, it's a matter of the mechanical leverage in the finger. At my age (53), my hands aren't going to grow, and they probably aren't going to get much stronger. I look at my teacher, and of course his hand is always a perfect arch shape, but his hands look like a bunch of bananas compared to mine. He could probably finger a 9 string double bass without trouble! I have played saxophone, specializing on baritone sax, for almost forty years (important: the left hand little finger is the hardest-working finger on the saxophone!) and my finger has been doing this all those years too. It doesn't cause pain.

So, for someone with my particular biomechanical layout, I think it's just inevitable that there will be some degree of "collapsed" fingers. Anyone have comments on this? My teacher basically said, "if you're making the notes, and it's not hurting, and the rest of your hand position is OK, then don't worry about it."

 

[rolandm]

Coming from the fretless electric bass world, I bring a lot of different fingering choices to how I approach the pop, country, classic rock and celtic music that I play in a couple different bands on my EUB. I have my action set on my bass at a point where it can produce a bit of a mwah sound if I want it, and while I'm not getting a classic Pino/Jaco vibe out of my upright, there are points where that kind of sound can more effectively fit the piece you're playing. When we play Listen to the Music for example, there are sections where I want the bass nice and fat through the verse where I will play collapsed on the pad of my fingers. But then in the bridge and chorus, I want the line to be soft and intricate and dancing, so I rock back up to the tips.

As an art and design instructor, I've always told my students that there are no rules, whatsoever. There are just actions, and responses to those actions. If you know the response you want, you can pick the appropriate action, but you MUST be a master of that action in order to get the appropriate response.

I guess the same could be said of bass.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Turf3 brings up an important point - everyone's hands are different. I've had several excellent students with double jointed* fingers while my hands are the opposite of double jointed. When teaching these students, it's always a challenge to demonstrate physical technique because their hands do not work like mine in some respects and vice versa. I think turf's teacher was wise to say "if you're making the notes, and it's not hurting, and the rest of your hand position is OK, then don't worry about it", much in the same way that a tall teacher with long limbs and hands will have to be openminded when showing a much shorter, more compact student how to manage distances. There are some basic guidelines that we try to impart as regards what makes a good stop and the conventional ways to achieve that, and these concepts should be passed on to the student and the student should make it their job to make note of them; at the same time, not all bodies work the same and each player must deal with the apparatus they were dealt rather than trying to pretend that their body is different than it is.


* The actual condition is called hypermobility, but most people know it as some form of "double-jointed-ness".

 

[lcpierce]

Turf3 brings up an important point - everyone's hands are different. I've had several excellent students with double jointed* fingers while my hands are the opposite of double jointed. When teaching these students, it's always a challenge to demonstrate physical technique because their hands do not work like mine in some respects and vice versa. I think turf's teacher was wise to say "if you're making the notes, and it's not hurting, and the rest of your hand position is OK, then don't worry about it", much in the same way that a tall teacher with long limbs and hands will have to be openminded when showing a much shorter, more compact student how to manage distances. There are some basic guidelines that we try to impart as regards what makes a good stop and the conventional ways to achieve that, and these concepts should be passed on to the student and the student should make it their job to make note of them; at the same time, not all bodies work the same and each player must deal with the apparatus they were dealt rather than trying to pretend that their body is different than it is.


* The actual condition is called hypermobility, but most people know it as some form of "double-jointed-ness".

I have to agree. Reading Turf3's reply made me a bit nervous because of the collapsed finger issue, but I am not his teacher and I don't know his hand structure. If his teacher is okaying this, I cannot imagine it's a big problem.

I think the "one size fits all" way of thinking is what gets us into trouble and can ultimately lead to ourselves and our students getting hurt. It works both ways - I've known several people (myself included) whose technique looked fine, but were actually experiencing pain and tension. While I will by default teach my students to play with curved fingers from the get go, I do think we should cater our teaching to our students' unique bodies as best we can.

 

[Don Kasper]

Who/What/Where is the originator of this idea? I've never heard of this before.
"The issue of force and closed stops is a big difference between arco and pizz playing, since when playing with a bow a stop that is not full or flags for a moment can be "fixed" with the bow,..."
Thanks.

 

[Tom Lane]

I kind of hinted that one of my hobbies is watching other bassists play. At first it was just curiosity and nearly everybody played more proficiently than me, so I thought I could learn something, which, of course, I did. But, as that equation changed and I moved into the "intermediate" player-realm, I found that I still learned things from watching other players, even if they were less developed than me. My ego might poke up and think "cool, my technique is "better" than theirs" but... then I noticed that my technique might follow more traditional methods, but... some of these people were getting around just fine with good intonation and tone. And, I pretty regularly catch the masters doing "unconventional" things or at least different than they taught me like playing up to a C on the G-string in TP without putting their thumb down.

I still watch with fascination these folks who don't shift at all, but play more like a bass guitar. They're neither shifting nor pivoting but "leaping" between notes. I would never recommend these kinds of habits to anyone and I'm a fan of Chris Fitzgerald's "physical decomposition" analysis of technique because I think it leads to smart, efficient, and physically healthful habits, but it does drive the point home to me that there are a lot of ways to successfully play.

As a teacher, where do you draw the line between non-traditional technique that seems to be working but is "weird"?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Who/What/Where is the originator of this idea? I've never heard of this before.
"The issue of force and closed stops is a big difference between arco and pizz playing, since when playing with a bow a stop that is not full or flags for a moment can be "fixed" with the bow,..."
Thanks.

Not sure what you mean, since you quoted my post to ask the question about the source of the quote. Later in the same paragraph, I wrote about often hearing arco teachers talk about using only as much left hand force as needed and no more. In my experience, jazz players with a full sound tend to espouse the same concept but with the caveat that it's better to err on the side of "slightly too much force on the stop" rather than "cutting it too close" since once a pizz stop has been compromised there's no way to bring the note back. A player who is playing with a bow can deepen the stop and revive a note that flags after it has been struck, while a person without one can't. It was just a personal observation and not an attempt at any kind of controversial statement.

 

[neilG]

As a teacher, where do you draw the line between non-traditional technique that seems to be working but is "weird"?

It's only when a student has shown no aptitude for adopting my method, that I'll let the weird stuff happen. You can only hammer at it for so long. Knowing when to stop expecting it is the tough part.