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Double Bass Curved v.s. Collapsed Fingers
- Thread starter lcpierce
- Start date
okcrum
in your chest
Well played, Tom. 
As it was explained to me (I was also studying engineering at the time) holding the LH in a circular form distributed the stresses evenly around the hand, especially the joints. That is, as long as the hand is large and healthy enough to do so. Injury or genetics could certainly produce exceptions to this.
As it was explained to me (I was also studying engineering at the time) holding the LH in a circular form distributed the stresses evenly around the hand, especially the joints. That is, as long as the hand is large and healthy enough to do so. Injury or genetics could certainly produce exceptions to this.
All well intentioned dogma about how truly great players don't play in thumb position with collapsed fingers aside, check out Renaud Garcia Fons at about the 10 minute mark of this performance:
He sure doesn't sound tired, sloppy, or out of tune to me. Just saying.
He sure doesn't sound tired, sloppy, or out of tune to me. Just saying.
All well intentioned dogma about how truly great players don't play in thumb position with collapsed fingers aside, check out Renaud Garcia Fons at about the 10 minute mark of this performance:
He sure doesn't sound tired, sloppy, or out of tune to me. Just saying.
True, but if you think you can play this set up in an orchestra you are wrong. Amplification aside, the typical orchestra player has a much higher string height. Personally, if I had to bet, think this wonderful musician (and I mean that, I know this video from before) could not play what is in this video if he grabbed a bass from the section of a major orchestras.
So for this argument of finger position, I'm glad you brought up this video because it's a lot like solo strings vs orchestral. When I practice on my daily set up, some things become very hard. This is why I mentioned fatigue of the hand. If you are working on a recital program in solo tuning, try to grab your orchestra bass and run your program, if you can at all. Usually the string are too high to even play some spots.
This is not a knock against solo tuning, actually a reason FOR it. But, when I do play in solo tuning, I try to watch my hands closely because I will really be in a position to play with a proper hand position.
I basically agree with you but we also have to consider that the double bass has way more pizzicato colors available to it than the other strings and is used more ways in more genres than the others. As long as we take that into account I am with you. From a pedagogical standpoint I stress curved fingers on the left hand. While I don't agree with Rabbath (from a pedagogical standpoint - I agree with HIS use of collapsed fingers in his own work) on teaching collapsed fingers it is without question that those who study his method are often stellar players (see below).
All well intentioned dogma about how truly great players don't play in thumb position with collapsed fingers aside, check out Renaud Garcia Fons at about the 10 minute mark of this performance:
He sure doesn't sound tired, sloppy, or out of tune to me. Just saying.
Agreed - and he comes from the Rabbath school where this is done intentionally.
okcrum,
For me, the primary concern regarding the LH thumb, (with new players, in the lower positions, esp.), is its placement on the neck - whether it is curved or not, it should stay (generally) in the middle of the (back of the) neck. This will prevent the dreaded LH "clamp" with the thumb migrating to the E string (out)side of the neck, which then causes the palm to touch the neck, which then pulls the fingers flat, which then causes the knuckles to buckle from the extra force now required to depress the string, which then impedes any chance of moving/shifting smoothly, as there is now a "DeathGrip" on the neck, etc., ad nausea um...
OR, if it migrates to the G string side of the neck, which causes the LH wrist to have a 90 degree bend/break, and again a loss of that nice "C" shape of the wrist, thumb and fingers.
I tell my students (both BG and DB) - "I don't want to see your G.D. thumb, unless I'm standing behind you, or (for DB) you're in/or approaching Thumb Position."
I think we're both on the same page, we're just turning that page with a slightly different thumb configuration.(!)
See what I did there?
Thanks for you time, interest and civility.
I was getting lessons from two master double bassists early on and one said curved thumb the other said flat. I learned both and settled on flat with Don's parameters above. I've had certain students learn an arched thumb because it tightens up the whole position. I can play comfortably either way.
I was also taught never to hyperextend the left thumb. Unfortunately, that is, IMO, the most difficult habit to change. I know plenty of good players who play with totally crushed left thumb joints. It looks painful.
Don and Damon agree on something...I believe we've just seen the Fourth Horseman of The Apocalypse, gentlemen.
(smiley face!).
Thanks.
(smiley face!).
Thanks.
Agree with you both on this one (the left hand thumb stuff). How many horses is that?
IMHO, collapsed _hand_ is an issue, not so much collapsed _finger_. I look for strength where the fingers meet the palm - if those knuckles collapse, there's a hand strength issue. It's also worth noting that, while piano teachers have, for years, told us to play with curved fingers, many a fine pianist does not, at least some of the time.
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I see famous cello players with (intentional I guess) collapsed fingers all the time.
I've seen that too. It still doesn't make it the most efficient thing to do. Additionally, long term joint problems are less likely. Have you ever played a cello? A baby could press those strings down.
Let's remember this is the Pedagogy section - it isn't about what people do, it isn't about what the odd famous player "gets away with" - it is about what should be ethically passed on from teacher to student.
I do lots of stuff I wouldn't want to pass on to paying students. That is not the point here.
I do lots of stuff I wouldn't want to pass on to paying students. That is not the point here.
- Aug 1, 2005
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My first guitar teacher's view on this subject was that you can get into the next room via the door, or by smashing a hole in the wall. You can get there either way if you're dedicated enough, but why not choose the easier path? His opinion was that flat fingers/thumb was the "smashing through the wall" approach. I took those words to heart.
I don't think anyone has forgotten where we are. There is simply a whole lot of subjectivity to the issues involved. "What ethically gets passed along from teacher to student" is a prime example. I have a great colleague that I work with who is a wonderful bass pedagogue with 24 years professional orchestra experience. He plays beautifully with collapsed fingers in TP, and so do his students. Should he be censured because he doesn't toe the party line in the estimation of someone who finds this aspect of his teaching "unethical"? I happen to know who several of his teachers are/were, and the names don't get much higher up the ladder than these folks. Should they be censured for letting him develop his playing in the way he has?
The point of the pedagogy forum, as far as I know, is for teachers to share their beliefs and practices in a common space and let the reader take it all in and make up their own minds. And that's exactly what we are doing IMO. Nowhere does any rule read that teachers all need to agree or that the answer must always be a binary right/wrong/black/white.
-I teach both double bass and electric bass (forgive the profile pic with the slab!)
This is a great thread. I have always collapsed my index finger in thumb position, and only had one teacher really jump on it. He had this great way of turning the finger to the side (Similar to Prof. Bradetich I believe) that worked really well for him. When I tried it, I was playing right ON my fingernail and there was no way that was workable. So I slunk off into a corner and kept up my collapsing tricks. We need some give and take for different body types for sure.
Re: thumbs -my main bass teacher (who studied with Fred Zimmerman) was able to fix my double jointed thumb, and every note since that day has been a joy. Back when I allowed the thumb to collapse, I was "clamping" the neck and shifting was really clunky. Now, I move in a much more flowing way, and have better legato and better intonation on shifts. Collapsing, flat fingers seem to accompany my "switchers" when they take up the double bass after starting on Fender. So I always tell them to pick up a water bottle and notice what their hand naturally does- I have yet to see a collapsed joint!
As a side note, I'd love to join a conversation about "wrist rotation" which I read about in Joel Quarrington's book, and have been experimenting with, to good result.
This is a great thread. I have always collapsed my index finger in thumb position, and only had one teacher really jump on it. He had this great way of turning the finger to the side (Similar to Prof. Bradetich I believe) that worked really well for him. When I tried it, I was playing right ON my fingernail and there was no way that was workable. So I slunk off into a corner and kept up my collapsing tricks. We need some give and take for different body types for sure.
Re: thumbs -my main bass teacher (who studied with Fred Zimmerman) was able to fix my double jointed thumb, and every note since that day has been a joy. Back when I allowed the thumb to collapse, I was "clamping" the neck and shifting was really clunky. Now, I move in a much more flowing way, and have better legato and better intonation on shifts. Collapsing, flat fingers seem to accompany my "switchers" when they take up the double bass after starting on Fender. So I always tell them to pick up a water bottle and notice what their hand naturally does- I have yet to see a collapsed joint!
As a side note, I'd love to join a conversation about "wrist rotation" which I read about in Joel Quarrington's book, and have been experimenting with, to good result.
Yes I have played a cello. But my point was that a lot of famous cello players do that collapsing intentionally. Not only in TP. Especially when using heavy vibrato. I guess some cello players think it is more efficient to achieve wide vibrato with collapsing? I am not sure why they do it and I don't play with collapsed fingers myself. But it interests me nevertheless.
Look here (around 1:00 but all over the place). All fingers are collapsed almost all the time. I am sure there is a philosophy behind that:
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I see this a lot with cellists, and I suspect you're right about the vibrato. I know that for me on the bass, playing with a collapsed finger allows for a more subtle vibrato because it's a vibrato more from the pad than from the tip. I'm not a physicist, but: as I mentioned in the 2nd post in this thread, playing with the pad, in addition to requiring a different sort of leverage, produces a different sort of sound. For pizz players, it's often called a "growl" when on the lower strings, but it's there on the higher strings as well; another way to look (listen) at it would be as a certain kind of bloom on the envelope of the note. I don't play cello, but it would make sense that this would be true for cellists as well.
Going back to your comment about vibrato, I think you are on to something, but suspect that the answer lies more in the area of "controlled vibrato" rather than "wide vibrato". From my experience, vibrating from the pad (as in the kind of collapsed finger vibrato shown in the video) produces a narrower vibrato with a thicker sound, and it's easier to control the speed because the motion of the hand around the finger simply moves the weight from one side of the pad that's already on the string to the other. Playing on the tip allows for more rotation, and thus a wider vibrato. As regards the cellist in the video, I think her sound is beautiful and find her vibrato to be very subtle and nuanced; many cellists use a much wider and more "operatic" vibrato that I find off putting in some way I don't quite have words for. It will be interesting for me to observe in the future how the cellists who play with this sort of "hyper romantic" vibrato produce it technically. Thanks for giving me something to look out for! Very interesting observations.
-I teach both double bass and electric bass (forgive the profile pic with the slab!)
This is a great thread. I have always collapsed my index finger in thumb position, and only had one teacher really jump on it. He had this great way of turning the finger to the side (Similar to Prof. Bradetich I believe) that worked really well for him. When I tried it, I was playing right ON my fingernail and there was no way that was workable. So I slunk off into a corner and kept up my collapsing tricks. We need some give and take for different body types for sure.
Great observation. This is the kind of position that I see Joel Quarrington use in TP, playing from the side of the index finger from a position that I have come to describe as "free position", where the fingers do not stay spaced to the half step, but rather bunch together to allow the arm to concentrate its weight on the production of vibrato. This makes the hand/arm angle backward toward the lower range of the bass, as in this video at around the 1 minute mark and elsewhere:
I tried to make this finger position work for quite some time, but like you, it was too painful on the nail bed of the finger, so I found a different way to relax the hand to allow the arm to focus on vibrato.
Please feel free to start one! I'd love to be involved in that. Joel is a beautiful player, and there is a lot to learn from watching him and listening to what he has to say.
On Joel Quarrington`s left hand:
Joel Quarrington technique
edit: link doesn`t work and my computer is doing weird stuff. You can do a search anyway
Joel Quarrington technique
edit: link doesn`t work and my computer is doing weird stuff. You can do a search anyway
