Double Bass Curved v.s. Collapsed Fingers

[Lionel Albert]

So, the pedagogy forum is for people who actually teach the double to weigh in with what are the most ethical and proven ideas around an issue, not for people that don't own a double bass to cloud the issue.

The whole idea about curved fingers is it is better in the long run. I end up doing a lot of things to project a big pizz sound, but the goal is curved.

What we end up doing and what we teach are often two different things altogether. If I make choice to use idiosyncratic techniques it is still not what I transmit to those paying for lessons.

On the other hand, I have a student coming from rockabilly who wants to learn more "legit" ways of playing. I've worked on NOT changing what he does when he slaps and moving from that technique to a more legit stance and hand position for walking and then moving back to what he does when slapping.

You're totally right, I should not know what I'm talking about.

 

[David Potts]

As a classical player/teacher my two greatest concerns about collapsing fingers remain (1) the risk of over stretching ligaments and injury, and (2), the risk of a double finger action that slows getting the notes clearly "stopped" in rapid-note passages. Having said that my Bel Canto string heights are probably greater than most jazz players would prefer.

DP

 

[Lionel Albert]

I usually play the bass guitar, I haven't got a double bass but I'm able to play it, I can say that both are possible but it depends how long you've got to play, less than 5 minutes is OK for curved fingers but more... collapsed fingers technique sounds better for your health and your endurance, it depends of the action of the strings too (high or low).

Please, don't pay attention to my comment, I believed "collapsed" meant "several fingers on the string" but it meant "crisped"...
The first strings instrument I played was a classical guitar, curved fingers are required, the thumb has to be in front of the 2nd or 3rd string, when I began the bass guitar I had some issues with this technique (my left hand tended to be a little bit exhausted) some double bass players showed me how they played and I adapted a mixed technique on my bass guitar in order to have more endurance.
I'm sorry for that.

Lionel

 

[damonsmith]

We all do a lot of things, but this forum is about what is good to pass on. The collapsed finger thing is part my only real issue with Maestro Rabbath: we get ALL of his technique in his methods - including the collapsed fingers which, IMO is an idiosyncratic thing that works for him fine. Rabbath, like Charlie Haden is a genius and just because it works for those two doesn't mean it will work for you. Unlike Haden, most of Rabbath's other technical innovations are extremely helpful. Though I have to admit that I listen to Haden way more!!

 

[okcrum]

There you've said something very very truthful. It is mind boggling to me how Charlie Haden could manage to sound so beautiful with *this*, ehem, technique ...
Same goes for Dave Holland, in a way ....

I studied with Dave (as a complete beginner) back in the post-Miles days, and I can assure you that the goal was left hand curved fingertips only (using Simandl and Nanny) for the first couple of years and almost all arco until later. He wanted to set a good foundation for me. I suspect James Edward Merrett did the same to him.

IIRC, Charlie Haden came up as a country/bluegrass player in the family band, self taught. I agree, he's mind boggling.

 

[ctrlzjones]

I studied with Dave (as a complete beginner) back in the post-Miles days, and I can assure you that the goal was left hand curved fingertips only (using Simandl and Nanny) for the first couple of years and almost all arco until later. He wanted to set a good foundation for me. I suspect James Edward Merrett did the same to him.

IIRC, Charlie Haden came up as a country/bluegrass player in the family band, self taught. I agree, he's mind boggling.

I think that we have to remember that technique (in all its shades: be it body position, instruments, amplifiers, strings or promising brands of snake oil) should not become an end in itself ...
The aim is to get your 'sound' out. As this is a struggle on many levels but cutting it down to the 'body - instrument' relation I find that it really helps to center on developing ones individual inner world e g having the clearest idea of what should come out possible (or being open to surprises that fits better than what you wanted to do first hand) and adapt to that, following it. The technique (be it bla bla bla) is there to help this process.

If it sounds great nobody would object (well, the bad teachers with the cane stick would, but being grown ups we are able to kick their asses). But if your are struggling with something you cannot achieve soundwise (those inner imaginations), or something in your body starts hurting, you may consider to make a change.
Until then everything should be 'a' okay.

One has to remember that techniques or methods are not coming from a divine universal being but were developed by other players that have proven to be the 'better ones', trying to help out students by not having them repeat their own mistakes ...
So if anything in technique is not helping you to 'have a better life' a.k.a 'less suffering', in regard to getting the 'inner out', I would disregard it. iPhones and social networks included ...

 

[damonsmith]

If it sounds great nobody would object (well, the bad teachers with the cane stick would, but being grown ups we are able to kick their asses). But if your are struggling with something you cannot achieve soundwise (those inner imaginations), or something in your body starts hurting, you may consider to make a change.
Until then everything should be 'a' okay.

Actually, a good, professional teacher would object. Getting something to "sound good" and leaving it alone is the recipe for a bad bass player. Using the proven techniques allow not just that one thing to sound good but all the other things like it to sound good.
If you want to make an artistic decision to "hobble" yourself, you won't need the help of a teacher. Things sounding good before they are played properly is probably the biggest hurdle we all have as both players and teachers.
It will sound good until it doesn't and you hit a wall.

 

[lcpierce]

Actually, a good, professional teacher would object. Getting something to "sound good" and leaving it alone is the recipe for a bad bass player. Using the proven techniques allow not just that one thing to sound good but all the other things like it to sound good.
If you want to make an artistic decision to "hobble" yourself, you won't need the help of a teacher. Things sounding good before they are played properly is probably the biggest hurdle we all have as both players and teachers.
It will sound good until it doesn't and you hit a wall.

That, and you could be hurting yourself while sounding fine. Playing with poor technique can often lead to injury, which is one of the main reasons why we teach proper technique.

Simply sounding good doesn't mean everything is okay and nothing needs to be changed. A teacher is there to help overcome any underlying issues that are getting/could get in the way of advancing to the next level.

 

[ctrlzjones]

Thank you both for correcting a way-to-bold statement. I was indeed oversimplifying the complex relation between applied technique and sound result and I have to ask for aplologies for that, really.
The fact that you both are in line, while playing so opposite brands of music (taken from what I've seen on TB, but maybe they are not) makes me think ...

But anyway: I did not intend to say 'forget about technique' as it has no importance. We all remember the first time approaching our beloved instrument and I assume (as it happened to be my case) that the common thought was: OMG, how am I going to manage to play that enormous thing? It seemed to be impossible ...
All the following steps involve questions of technique and decisions about how to do it the 'right way' (that is the threads topic, collapsed vs curved).
And at present time everybody is on the way, some better some poorer, but trying to manage to 'get it out there' and enjoying the dabbles; the results are always on a scale.

I am a kind of romantic person, the one that do not care to much about efficiency, streamlined selves, top notches, but about the quality of moments; sharing my abilities with others and grow during that process. Within that I have a learning curve that of course involves the mastering of my instrument; optimising the personal capacity of expression. There is not much wrong and right in that, only maximising abilities to connect, with myself, the instrument, the others, the music; e.g. learning to do something you really want.

And of course, as we are not the first DBs players on the planet we should learn from others, watching, reading, listening how they are doing it.
But we should not forget that learning how to do something complex as playing music is a *very* personal quest. There are recipes that works for one but are breaking the neck of the other.

It hurts me when I see someone struggling to adapt a certain technique just because 'it has to be done that way', struggling because it is unnatural to him/her. Instead of learning techniques 'just because' we should learn to develop a deeper understanding about the problems and possible solutions.
Self observation and honesty and mature judgement are the keys to that. Trying something out, giving it time to settle, and vary (or change directives) completely if necessary, may be a time consuming habit, but well worth it. In the end one may learn a greater deal from the mistakes that were happening along the way.

I evolved in technique and sound production because the necessary changes 'felt right' and 'sounded better' and were 'easier'.
But not from doing things in the 'correct' way.

We do only know the 'famous' exceptions aka Charlie Haden, Thelonious Monk, Django Reinhardt, Horace Parlan (and all the others) but I am pretty sure that there a a lots of cats out there having a hell of a time, bringing joy to others meanwhile totally missing a proper technique.
They may be risking tenosynovitis, but Ive seen a lot of academic players suffering from that too ...

Playing music is such a *personal* thing to do ...

And plis filter my broken inglisch the best way you could - my intentions are good, do not let me be misunderstood ;-)

 

[lcpierce]

It hurts me when I see someone struggling to adapt a certain technique just because 'it has to be done that way', struggling because it is unnatural to him/her. Instead of learning techniques 'just because' we should learn to develop a deeper understanding about the problems and possible solutions.

I totally agree with you there, but I think we might be talking about different things.

There are several schools of thought in the bass world. What I've come to believe (and please feel free to disagree with me here) is that some techniques taught in one school might not work well for a particular student, while the techniques taught in another seem to fit just right.

An example is the argument of where the weight in the bow should come from and what muscles to use when bowing. Some schools teach to use your back muscles when bowing. My teacher, Jeff Bradetich, taught me that the weight should be coming solely from the arm and to avoid using the back. Using my back muscles does not work for me, but it works for many people I know, including some former students of Jeff. Neither is wrong, in my opinion, because our bodies are all different.

I completely agree with you that playing music is very personal, and everyone has their own way of approaching the bass. As teachers, we should be sensitive to that - and it sounds like you absolutely are. But I think what a lot of us were talking about here were the techniques that can become detrimental if done incorrectly or ignored.

Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I am an avid proponent of teaching students to play with curved fingers first. I believe it prevents injury, helps you play quicker, and improves accuracy - it's my job to nag my students about this so they don't end up hurting themselves and are able play what they want with ease. However, there are times when I think it's okay to deviate from our technique in order to get a certain sound we want. We all do it - as Damon said, there's a difference between what we teach and what we do, which is perfect. But, I think it's important to have a firm ground in good technique first. Otherwise, the "incorrect" technique that was once "for special times only" could become the norm.

 

[ctrlzjones]

I totally agree with you there, but I think we might be talking about different things.

There are several schools of thought in the bass world. What I've come to believe (and please feel free to disagree with me here) is that some techniques taught in one school might not work well for a particular student, while the techniques taught in another seem to fit just right.

An example is the argument of where the weight in the bow should come from and what muscles to use when bowing. Some schools teach to use your back muscles when bowing. My teacher, Jeff Bradetich, taught me that the weight should be coming solely from the arm and to avoid using the back. Using my back muscles does not work for me, but it works for many people I know, including some former students of Jeff. Neither is wrong, in my opinion, because our bodies are all different.

I completely agree with you that playing music is very personal, and everyone has their own way of approaching the bass. As teachers, we should be sensitive to that - and it sounds like you absolutely are. But I think what a lot of us were talking about here were the techniques that can become detrimental if done incorrectly or ignored.

Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I am an avid proponent of teaching students to play with curved fingers first. I believe it prevents injury, helps you play quicker, and improves accuracy - it's my job to nag my students about this so they don't end up hurting themselves and are able play what they want with ease. However, there are times when I think it's okay to deviate from our technique in order to get a certain sound we want. We all do it - as Damon said, there's a difference between what we teach and what we do, which is perfect. But, I think it's important to have a firm ground in good technique first. Otherwise, the "incorrect" technique that was once "for special times only" could become the norm.

Along with developing ears, inner time and sound projection, finding a proper technique seems to be one of the big challenges for every player. Finding out what works best is a quest that I have been persecuing since day one and finding relieves that are helping to deal with such an 'unhandy' instrument by changing & adapting the 'how to do it' in the 'right way' is a very blissful experience.

I really enjoy the feeling when all the parameters are 'in line' (well, its always an approximation of having it perfect, but coming closer every day is rewarding [remember that fine quote from Pablo Casal? Being asked at the age of 90somthing why he still practises he said something like 'I am almost there', or 'I am still getting better'] ... ) and things are happening in a natural way that just feels right. Having a relaxed body & mind evokes a flow ...

It is hard to imagine that some people (like some of your students) are so successfully resistant to understanding that process that a teacher has to apply a posture that you describe as 'nagging' ... A good question to ask is: 'why do you play music'? where do you want to go / to be?' Lemmi help you out with this and that. (sorry for being bold again)

But then again, it is this 'Prometheus thingie' we all are condemned to live through ... Enjoying the trip to perfection pays back way better than the frustration that is implied in the feeling of 'not yet being there'. It all is one big process compound by little things, as curved fingers, weight in they arms or shoulders and fingertips ...

Forgive if I am (ab)using such a practical question about curved vs collapsed fingers to head into the deep waters of motivation (what I think that music is all about: to connect the 'inner' with the 'outer'), but it really seems to help having the clearest projection possible of what you are going to do next and having your body (that uses to be the obstacle, sometimes it is the mind too) in a functional, relaxed condition: that allows the always judging Ego to 'let go' to 'let it happen' ... So much buitiful music out there, going through you, you can help it, with an im(proper) technique ...
Charlie Haden, Thelonious Monk, Django Reinhardt, Horace Parlen along with all the other cats that do it the 'right way'...

So all I was trying to say is that technique should not be an obstacle that is eliminating players that are unable to adapt to it but a helpful tool to find a better way for making it happen. And yes: it takes its time to render success. Better be a smiling Prometheus ...

 

[damonsmith]

I don't think your posts are very related to the topic of pedagogy. In 20 years of teaching I've never met a student that couldn't hear better than they could play. Ear training is super important, but getting your body caught up with what you can already hear needs to be a priority.
Again, this forum is about the art of teaching, and you are looking at more artistic ideas. I like Charlie Haden, too, but he blew it on most albums where uptempo playing is required - normally "makes up for it" with an outstanding slow to mid-tempo solo (in D)! Keep in mind that encouraging a student to bank on being a genius, famous or both wouldn't be ethical teaching behavior. As teacher we can't transfer fame or genius, what we can do is teach proven, efficient technique.

Along with developing ears, inner time and sound projection, finding a proper technique seems to be one of the big challenges for every player. Finding out what works best is a quest that I have been persecuing since day one and finding relieves that are helping to deal with such an 'unhandy' instrument by changing & adapting the 'how to do it' in the 'right way' is a very blissful experience.

I really enjoy the feeling when all the parameters are 'in line' (well, its always an approximation of having it perfect, but coming closer every day is rewarding [remember that fine quote from Pablo Casal? Being asked at the age of 90somthing why he still practises he said something like 'I am almost there', or 'I am still getting better'] ... ) and things are happening in a natural way that just feels right. Having a relaxed body & mind evokes a flow ...

It is hard to imagine that some people (like some of your students) are so successfully resistant to understanding that process that a teacher has to apply a posture that you describe as 'nagging' ... A good question to ask is: 'why do you play music'? where do you want to go / to be?' Lemmi help you out with this and that. (sorry for being bold again)

But then again, it is this 'Prometheus thingie' we all are condemned to live through ... Enjoying the trip to perfection pays back way better than the frustration that is implied in the feeling of 'not yet being there'. It all is one big process compound by little things, as curved fingers, weight in they arms or shoulders and fingertips ...

Forgive if I am (ab)using such a practical question about curved vs collapsed fingers to head into the deep waters of motivation (what I think that music is all about: to connect the 'inner' with the 'outer'), but it really seems to help having the clearest projection possible of what you are going to do next and having your body (that uses to be the obstacle, sometimes it is the mind too) in a functional, relaxed condition: that allows the always judging Ego to 'let go' to 'let it happen' ... So much buitiful music out there, going through you, you can help it, with an im(proper) technique ...
Charlie Haden, Thelonious Monk, Django Reinhardt, Horace Parlen along with all the other cats that do it the 'right way'...

So all I was trying to say is that technique should not be an obstacle that is eliminating players that are unable to adapt to it but a helpful tool to find a better way for making it happen. And yes: it takes its time to render success. Better be a smiling Prometheus ...

 

[ctrlzjones]

I don't think your posts are very related to the topic of pedagogy. In 20 years of teaching I've never met a student that couldn't hear better than they could play. Ear training is super important, but getting your body caught up with what you can already hear needs to be a priority.
Again, this forum is about the art of teaching, and you are looking at more artistic ideas. I like Charlie Haden, too, but he blew it on most albums where uptempo playing is required - normally "makes up for it" with an outstanding slow to mid-tempo solo (in D)! Keep in mind that encouraging a student to bank on being a genius, famous or both wouldn't be ethical teaching behavior. As teacher we can't transfer fame or genius, what we can do is teach proven, efficient technique.

Sorry for making unwanted noise caused by disregarding the rules. I really did not try to 'troll' or disturb the threads topic but rather questioning the 'metaphysics' (I'm in lack of a better term) of technique and encouriung to develop a deeper understanding of its importance. Something I thought that could be if some importance in pedagogy.

The hearing and playing item seems to be an 'hen & egg' thing, different for readers and improvisers too, but Ill refrain polluting this thread any further. I really admire your playing and contributions too much to get into a nitpicking debate with you ;-)

 

[lcpierce]

It is hard to imagine that some people (like some of your students) are so successfully resistant to understanding that process that a teacher has to apply a posture that you describe as 'nagging' ... A good question to ask is: 'why do you play music'? where do you want to go / to be?' Lemmi help you out with this and that. (sorry for being bold again)

I totally meant "nagging" as a joke - I pray to Zeus in heaven I never become a nag!

Many techniques, like playing with curved fingers, take a long time to apply because students commonly have to undo bad habits they have formed over several years. Even if the student is young, they may have 3-4 years of these bad habits that are ingrained in them. Because of this, I do remind my students quite often of the techniques we are working to improve. I know some of these techniques will take a while for them to adjust to, and I want to keep these ideas fresh in their minds so they're continually thinking about them and consciously working on improving.

So all I was trying to say is that technique should not be an obstacle that is eliminating players that are unable to adapt to it but a helpful tool to find a better way for making it happen. And yes: it takes its time to render success. Better be a smiling Prometheus ...

I absolutely agree. However, I think "good technique" is about eliminating the obstacles that get in the way of a student's performance, not adding more obstacles to the journey. It's my job as a teacher to figure out what those obstacles are.

I'd also like to add that usually the problem is not the technique - it's the way the student is approaching the technique. I can talk all day long about how to keep the wrist flexible, but those words might translate into something completely different to the student in terms of their body. One of the things I love about teaching is bridging that gap - figuring out what these techniques mean to the student and how they will work with his/her body.

 

[neilG]

Better be a smiling Prometheus ...

Let us not forget that for all the good he did for mankind, Prometheus was condemned to eternal punishment by being chained to a rock and having his liver eaten by an eagle each day. Be careful teaching, my friends.

 

[phill321]

I mean everything I am going to say respectfully.
Curved fingers vs collapsed is not something any other string instrument would discuss. Curved is the "correct" way. As was mentioned above, we are all not perfect and probably collapse from time to time. However, speaking for myself, if I could do the same passage without collapsing, it would sound better.
We talk about getting different sounds out of the instrument, yes, the hand position changes, but I would guess that usually when we collapse we ARE trying to get a different sound, but we also are usually fatigued.
Players at ALL levels who collapse generally have some degree of intonation problems. Again, I mean that respectfully. If you talk or play for great violinists or cellists, you notice that "our" bass standards are very low. We as bassists factor in the difficulty of the instrument and allow for things like collapsed fingers to not be a big issue. When we hear a bassist perform the Elgar Cello concerto/Czards/insert hard piece here, there is a tremendous curve that comes into play in the bassists favor because it's such a difficult task. However, if you really converse with other string players, they are not so impressed. Even musically, if you ask a violinist to play the Dittersdorf concerto you will hear a totally different classical phrasing then you hear from the bass world.

Again, I only bring these issues up because I think they are important. As bassists we should strive for the same standards as the other string instruments.

 

[okcrum]

Does anyone remember those photos of Fred Zimmerman in the Simandl books? It sounds like his technique would not quite pass muster today.

Curved finger technique seems to me to be strongly related to developing hand strength. I've had students in the past have the "light bulb" experience when they truly realize why I also gave them hand workouts. Arm weight can only help so much...

 

[Don Kasper]

Does anyone remember those photos of Fred Zimmerman in the Simandl books? It sounds like his technique would not quite pass muster today.

Curved finger technique seems to me to be strongly related to developing hand strength. I've had students in the past have the "light bulb" experience when they truly realize why I also gave them hand workouts. Arm weight can only help so much...

Freddy's LH looks pretty good, to me - on page 4.
What is it that you don't like?
Thanks.

 

[okcrum]

Freddy's LH looks pretty good, to me - on page 4.
What is it that you don't like?
Thanks.

It's the thumb in the lower positions. I think many teachers have abandoned that. It's reverse-curved, as though he were playing a slab.

It's also possible I'm an outlier, taught and teaching fingertip only on the left thumb.

 

[Don Kasper]

okcrum,
OK.
Thanks for clarifying.