Double Bass Curved v.s. Collapsed Fingers

[Don Kasper]

Not sure what you mean, since you quoted my post to ask the question about the source of the quote. Later in the same paragraph, I wrote about often hearing arco teachers talk about using only as much left hand force as needed and no more. In my experience, jazz players with a full sound tend to espouse the same concept but with the caveat that it's better to err on the side of "slightly too much force on the stop" rather than "cutting it too close" since once a pizz stop has been compromised there's no way to bring the note back. A player who is playing with a bow can deepen the stop and revive a note that flags after it has been struck, while a person without one can't. It was just a personal observation and not an attempt at any kind of controversial statement.

Thanks for clarifying, Chris.
I just had never heard of the concept of varying LH "force" to suit either pizz or arco playing. While a "compromised" or anemic arco long-tone can be resuscitated by perhaps increasing the LH force, there are many arco staccato/accented bow strokes that require the string to be fully stopped in anticipation of the bow stroke, just like a pizz note. It's been my experience that using (probably) slightly more (as opposed to the 'exact' amount of) LH force is the surest method for ensuring a full, speaking note, when bowing legato, accents, or off-the-string articulations. The beginning/attack of a note, whether pizz or arco, legato or staccato, p or FF, is either cleanly executed, or not.
When playing legato, (pizz or arco), the challenge is to maintain LH contact and weight (thru the note, thru the shift, and into the next note), while maintaining a loose/relaxed LH. Collapsed fingers are a very inefficient system for transmitting that weight into the string - and collapsed fingers require an over-exertion of the LH system, in an attempt to adequately stop the string. The excessive tension in the fingers also hinders the departure, movement and arrival of the hand as it shifts.
So, I teach and approach playing (LH) legato quarter notes the same way, whether pizz or arco. YMMV.
Thanks.
don kasper

 

[Don Kasper]

It's only when a student has shown no aptitude for adopting my method, that I'll let the weird stuff happen. You can only hammer at it for so long. Knowing when to stop expecting it is the tough part.

"Empty Buckets", as a friend of mine calls them- every week you fill their bucket, which arrives "empty" a week later...

 

[Tom Lane]

It's only when a student has shown no aptitude for adopting my method, that I'll let the weird stuff happen. You can only hammer at it for so long. Knowing when to stop expecting it is the tough part.

Interesting. I can relate that the issue is when to stop advocating your method to them. To take this a bit further, you would have corrected NHOP, Charlie Haden, and Eddie Gomez's technique? I think I would have left them alone and only addressed the aspects that they were dissatisfied with. Am I over-simplifying?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Don - if I were an accomplished arco player - which I most definitely am not - I think I would advise to err on the side of too much force rather than cut it too close, as you mentioned. My experience has been that when I get primarily arco students taking secondary lessons in jazz so that they can play in combos at the school, many of them (if not the majority) use insufficient force in the left hand to really get their pizz notes to speak properly. That may be an indication of their normal approach to left hand playing with the bow, or it may be the reverse of what happens to primarily pizz players' left hands when they first try to play with the bow; I know that in my case, I focus so much on what my right hand is doing that I "forget" how to play with my left. My observations also mainly concern a student population, which may also explain the phenomenon.

 

[ILIA]

If you learned to play with fingers curved exclusively, you will always have the option of playing with fingers collapsed when appropriate. It doesn't work going the other direction. People who play with collapsed fingers as their normal approach (because it's the only way they learned and the only way they can do it), will never have the option of playing with curved fingers effectively. This polemic discourse of curved fingers vs. collapsed fingers assumes that there is only one right way to do things. This is, of course, ridiculous. You need both approaches. There is a wrong way: to learn it one way in such a way that you can't have the flexibility to execute a passage a different way. So insist on curved fingers.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

I thought I'd throw out the idea that depending on how you approach the Bass, a collapsed first or second finger can be the most natural and effective way in thumb position.
If you play double stop 3rds in thumb position with your first finger on the higher string and your second or third on the lower, collapsing the knuckle at the tip of the first finger is the only way to press the string straight down to the fingerboard. Pushing with the tip of a curved finger will push the string off to the side.
If you play more or less from right behind the Bass (sitting or angled pin a la Rabbath etc.) This is the most efficient application of weight in the direction of the fingerboard. Catalin Rotaru plays this way. Rabbath is "sloppy" all over thumb position with every finger, but he's not at all sloppy about his arm weight being applied directly. He stops the string straight down to the board.

This might be dangerous advice to a beginner, but direct application of weight trumps how your fingers look every time. Down in the neck, curved fingers are the way to go, in thumb position, not always.

 

[neilG]

To take this a bit further, you would have corrected NHOP, Charlie Haden, and Eddie Gomez's technique? I think I would have left them alone and only addressed the aspects that they were dissatisfied with. Am I over-simplifying?

I guess I would have corrected them as beginners, but if a player like that came to me already playing well, I don't think there's a choice but to leave it alone. I will stand by my assertion that they would play even better with what I consider better technique.

 

[Tom Lane]

I guess I would have corrected them as beginners, but if a player like that came to me already playing well, I don't think there's a choice but to leave it alone. I will stand by my assertion that they would play even better with what I consider better technique.

So "better technique" is vague, no? Again, watching many masterful players, I see them leaping between note-leaps rather than shifting, but, I notice that when I learn to do those leaps, intonating well, on an arpeggio, for instance, I'm thinking in my mind about the "two-whole-steps" rather than leaping a Major third. Done quickly, the result may look the same, but the training to realize the result is not. Is that the difference between poor technique and good? On the flip-side, I've watched and listened to developed players ruin their rhythmic feel by shifting a minor 3rd with their thumb when they could have extended their hand to reach the interval in time. Maybe you see why I still have questions?

 

[neilG]

So "better technique" is vague, no?

No, in the context of this discussion and in keeping with what I know how to do, "correct" means curved fingers.

Again, watching many masterful players, I see them leaping between note-leaps rather than shifting, but, I notice that when I learn to do those leaps, intonating well, on an arpeggio, for instance, I'm thinking in my mind about the "two-whole-steps" rather than leaping a Major third. Done quickly, the result may look the same, but the training to realize the result is not. Is that the difference between poor technique and good?

I'm not sure. Why are you thinking that? Is it working for you? If yes, don't worry about it.

On the flip-side, I've watched and listened to developed players ruin their rhythmic feel by shifting a minor 3rd with their thumb when they could have extended their hand to reach the interval in time. Maybe you see why I still have questions?

In that case, the player's technique, whatever it is, is unmastered and needs refinement. You can fail at pivoting as well as shifting for the same intervals. Rhythmic fingering, IMO, is independent of these two techniques.

 

[David Potts]

I support the idea of hooking the strings towards the thumb with arched fingers ( helped by arm weight when playing seated), and continuing the arched shapes over into thumb position as much as possible. The only finger that is on its tip is the first finger moving into/out of thumb position, in order to avoid "grounding" the forearm on the bass ribs while transitioning to/from neck positions. The arched shapes also protect the joints from hypermobility, injury and a double action that slows getting the string firmly onto the fingerboard.The shapes are easier to maintain as you shift. You can trust your hand to work more like a machine.

Having said this there are so many different hand shapes and finger lengths to take into account and the end game is to meet the demands of the music without injuring yourself, short- or long term. For vibrato here again I use finger pads, not tips except for the first finger in thumb position, and not collapsed joints,

DP

 

[Steve Freides]

Chris, I have never heard anyone say what you said about stopping with the left hand. I hear a lot of classical, arco students making crappy sounds that are fixed by better left-hand stops, and that includes me.

A lot of this can, for some people, go back to how they hold the bass. If you can't really push down on your left hand notes because you don't have the bass well-balanced, well, there's part of your problem - you've developed a habit of making poor stops because your posture with the instrument won't support making good ones.

David Potts' avatar/picture/thing looks like good left hand posture/position/technique to me/myself/I. Fingers are curved but they aren't curved like a guitar players, which is too curved for the bass, IMHO, 'cept if you have to play double stops somewhere below thumb position.

-S-

 

[David Potts]

I think of my fingers shaped like a pianist's. There is a slight flat spot in the pad, between the finger tip and the center of the finger print. I try to bisect this flat spot with the string. The curve of my fingers is the natural extension of carrying the weight of my forearm through a relatively flat wrist (like a pianist). Callouses tend to form more to the outsides of the index finger and pinkie. This is because they come together and point inwards as you go from fully open hand with straight fingers towards making a fist. I use all four fingers through the neck positions, dropping the pinkie for F sharp on my way to thumb position.

I liked Chris' video. My hand approach probably splits the difference between his introductory playing of the Bach and his demo of strict old hand shape and use. He did not point out the tendency for the index finger to go sharp and the pinkie to go flat when moving across strings in either direction. This is because the hand pivots on the thumb and requires a slight stretch back or down when string crossing to follow the "fret", especially when in Half and First Position.

DP

 

[neilG]

He did not point out the tendency for the index finger to go sharp and the pinkie to go flat when moving across strings in either direction. This is because the hand pivots on the thumb and requires a slight stretch back or down when string crossing to follow the "fret", especially when in Half and First Position.

DP

In my experience I haven't see that as a general tendency. Everybody's hands are different, but those little quirks usually get ironed out in the practice room. When you say you "drop" the pinkie for F sharp, are you saying you use or don't use it for that note?

 

[David Potts]

As my hand prepares for, or passes over into, thumb position it progressively turns and comes forward to avoid the forearm grounding on the bass body. The string groove goes from across the pad of my index finger to diagonally across its tip while I maintain its arch. I am aiming for an unbroken "great slide" (glissando) for the length of the fingerboard and a useful test is to try an unbroken trill both up and down using fingers 1 and 2. During this process my pinkie pulls away from the fingerboard at about F sharp and can no longer comfortably be used. The notes are now so close together that this no longer matters. I used "drop" for "stop using"

However, if F sharp is the destination note I can still choose to use my pinkie and would do so very accurately by setting the heel of my hand to ground on the ribs .

Dp

 

[Reiska]

This is an interesting discussion for me at the moment, as I`m mainly a pizz player in 5ths, and with steel low / plain gut top strings. Steel and plain gut require very different touch on both hands, pizz or arco, and 5ths tuning require lots of playing up and down the strings. Plain gut tops and especially the D string seems to sound cleanest when played with the very tips of the fingers. Then you get a massive tonal palette from steel low strings played with tips, pads, or even two fingers stopping the string simultaneously ( to get a huge growl and mwwahh off the string ).

I`ve found that if one of my fingers collapses, the finger next to it has a tendency to collapse too ( especially 3rd and 4th finger ) and that feels way too rigid. That`s why I`m trying to keep my fingers curved, to keep the hand as relaxed and flexible as possible.

I`m aiming for good intonation and fat sound with any technique necessary, but any sort of pain is a total no-no. In my case, this keeps me away from strict Simandl-based technique. I try to keep my hand balanced and small, with my fingers curved and relaxed.

Edited a little

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

.... Callouses tend to form more to the outsides of the index finger and pinkie. This is because they come together and point inwards as you go from fully open hand with straight fingers towards making a fist....


I liked Chris' video. My hand approach probably splits the difference between his introductory playing of the Bach and his demo of strict old hand shape and use. He did not point out the tendency for the index finger to go sharp and the pinkie to go flat when moving across strings in either direction. This is because the hand pivots on the thumb and requires a slight stretch back or down when string crossing to follow the "fret", especially when in Half and First Position.
DP

Thanks, David. You are correct on both points, and I wish I had mentioned both of these things. The videos are unscripted except by topic, and unfortunately sometimes a the best topic "take" has some missing information. I will try to include the things you mention in a later video, though, because they are important useful information. Good catch, and thanks for the reminder. I also like what you said about the string groove above.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I just noticed this morning the way I stop the strings. I think it comes from the couple years spent rock climbing; when you climb typically they discourage being on your finger tips - granted you're not carrying your full body weight. Somehow that's gotten automatically applied to bass playing in the form of where I'm playing on my finger pads, but my fingers are still slightly curved - but never collapsed. No matter what, the elbow is usually up and almost perpendicular to the fingerboard so that the back muscles can engage the most. The wrist is straight, maybe slightly flexed a little bit.

Seems more efficient to me and I don't ever recall the left hand tiring out.

EDIT: Here's a rock climbing page on hand grips. What I'm describing above is A.
The Climbing Doctor - Rock Climbing Pulley Injury

Food for thought.

 

[damonsmith]

If you learned to play with fingers curved exclusively, you will always have the option of playing with fingers collapsed when appropriate. It doesn't work going the other direction. People who play with collapsed fingers as their normal approach (because it's the only way they learned and the only way they can do it), will never have the option of playing with curved fingers effectively. This polemic discourse of curved fingers vs. collapsed fingers assumes that there is only one right way to do things. This is, of course, ridiculous. You need both approaches. There is a wrong way: to learn it one way in such a way that you can't have the flexibility to execute a passage a different way. So insist on curved fingers.

This is my stance. Collapsed fingers should not be justified by an inability to play with them curved, rather by an A/B approach where you test both methods thoroughly and decide on one or both.

 

[Lionel Albert]

I usually play the bass guitar, I haven't got a double bass but I'm able to play it, I can say that both are possible but it depends how long you've got to play, less than 5 minutes is OK for curved fingers but more... collapsed fingers technique sounds better for your health and your endurance, it depends of the action of the strings too (high or low).

 

[damonsmith]

I usually play the bass guitar, I haven't got a double bass but I'm able to play it, I can say that both are possible but it depends how long you've got to play, less than 5 minutes is OK for curved fingers but more... collapsed fingers technique sounds better for your health and your endurance, it depends of the action of the strings too (high or low).

So, the pedagogy forum is for people who actually teach the double bass to weigh in with what are the most ethical and proven ideas around an issue, not for people that don't own a double bass to cloud the issue.

The whole idea about curved fingers is it is better in the long run. I end up doing a lot of things to project a big pizz sound, but the goal is curved.

What we end up doing and what we teach are often two different things altogether. If I make the choice to use idiosyncratic techniques it is still not what I transmit to those paying for lessons.

On the other hand, I have a student coming from rockabilly who wants to learn more "legit" ways of playing. I've worked on NOT changing what he does when he slaps and moving from that technique to a more legit stance and hand position for walking and then moving back to what he does when slapping.