D-Day, June 6, 1944

[Deleted member 92857]

For the record, the Red Army were no saints. In defeating the Nazis, they paid the German people back in spades for what the Nazis did to the Russian people. I understand the Russian outrage and hatred, but raping and killing German women, children, and elderly takes them down a few notches on my respect-o-meter, even if they did take Hitler and the Nazi's out. They could have risen above it and obliterated the Nazis without acting like savages. I know some feel like everyone in Germany deserved to be punished for what Hitler and the Nazis did, but I don't. The Nazi's - sure. But the German people who were either innocent, unable to do anything about the Nazis, or ignorant of their evil... no, they shouldn't have been raped and killed indiscriminately. That makes the Red Army little better than than Nazis. Better, yes, but not much.

If you'd like to read a very good book on the end of WWII in Europe, I recommend "The Last 100 days of WWII in Europe" by John Toland. http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Final-WWII-Europe/dp/B000J0Y4U8

I picked it up at an estate sale and found it fascinating. It is not the easiest read, because I kept having to refer back to pages I had previously read to remind myself of who was being referred to, because he painstakingly researched and detailed names and events. I almost felt like I had gotten to know everyone above the rank of private in the US, British, Russian, and German armies by the time I finished the book.

 

[bassteban]

Yeah, the more I read about it, the less *black & white* it appears... Kinda like a lot of stuff these days, and pretty much for all of recorded history...
Mind you, I don't know how I would've handled things were I Roosevelt, Truman, Churchill, etc. The was some very powerful evil going on.
Huge respect to all those who never left the beaches.

 

[TBird1958]

For the record, the Red Army were no saints. In defeating the Nazis, they paid the German people back in spades for what the Nazis did to the Russian people. I understand the Russian outrage and hatred, but raping and killing German women, children, and elderly takes them down a few notches on my respect-o-meter, even if they did take Hitler and the Nazi's out. They could have risen above it and obliterated the Nazis without acting like savages. I know some feel like everyone in Germany deserved to be punished for what Hitler and the Nazis did, but I don't. The Nazi's - sure. But the German people who were either innocent, unable to do anything about the Nazis, or ignorant of their evil... no, they shouldn't have been raped and killed indiscriminately. That makes the Red Army little better than than Nazis. Better, yes, but not much.

If you'd like to read a very good book on the end of WWII in Europe, I recommend "The Last 100 days of WWII in Europe" by John Toland. http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Final-WWII-Europe/dp/B000J0Y4U8

I picked it up at an estate sale and found it fascinating. It is not the easiest read, because I kept having to refer back to pages I had previously read to remind myself of who was being referred to, because he painstakingly researched and detailed names and events. I almost felt like I had gotten to know everyone above the rank of private in the US, British, Russian, and German armies by the time I finished the book.

You might look into " After the Reich" by Giles MacDonogh, it is very well researched, in truth, a difficult read - Post war was a brutal time in Germany.

 

[Relic]

The Red Army is a unique topic. Not an easy one to define. You had some good elements in there but then you had some very bad elements. You also have what were basically decent people being watched, guided and led by some NKVD "demons" who did Beria's/Satlin's bidding so coddling a hated enemy was out of the question for myriad reasons...
I had lived in Poland for a little while many years ago, when I would speak to some people who survived the war.... almost to the person, they would state that the hatred of the Soviets was far more intense then hatred of the Germans. Katyn is still a near-sacred word there...

 

[odin70]

To Europe as a whole the d-day was a disaster that only helped the red army to rape and occupie far more countries than Hitler ever did take. And it happend just because the Brits wanted to save theire Empire and keep on dominating the world. The even claimed that they did it for Poland..what a joke. Yes France was liberated but what about Hungary,Romania,Bulgaria,Albania,Yugoslavia,Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and East Germany ?

 

[Relic]

To Europe as a whole the d-day was a disaster that only helped the red army to rape and occupie far more countries than Hitler ever did take. And it happend just because the Brits wanted to save theire Empire and keep on dominating the world. The even claimed that they did it for Poland..what a joke. Yes France was liberated but what about Hungary,Romania,Bulgaria,Albania,Yugoslavia,Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and East Germany ?

That was the "present" handed to Stalin at Yalta to keep him happy.

D-Day's not the "disaster", Yalta is the disaster.

 

[SteveC]

hard to believe that it will be 70 years next year.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

You might look into " After the Reich" by Giles MacDonogh, it is very well researched, in truth, a difficult read - Post war was a brutal time in Germany.

Thanks TBird, I'll check it out. It was a tragic period, but fascinating nonetheless. I just pray to God that period of history does not repeat itself. There were several turning points where, if fate or luck had not prevailed, we'd be living in a very very different world.

EDIT: Wow, I just looked it up on Amazon, and this quote hit me like a ton of bricks:

"With the authorization of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, over four million Germans were impressed into forced labor. General George S. Patton was so disgusted by American policy in post-war Germany that he commented in his diary, “It is amusing to recall that we fought the revolution in defense of the rights of man and the civil war to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles"

Wow. Just wow.

...I had lived in Poland for a little while many years ago, when I would speak to some people who survived the war.... almost to the person, they would state that the hatred of the Soviets was far more intense then hatred of the Germans. Katyn is still a near-sacred word there...

That's an amazing statement, considering what the Nazis did to Poland. I wonder if some of those feelings could be due to the fact that the Russians were there much longer, or that they were there more recently? I'm no fan of the Russians, but they didn't set out to destroy the country as the Nazi's did. The Nazis clearly wanted to make a statement that "if you resist, we will do to you what we have done to Poland"

 

[TBird1958]

Here's a link to a review.
I was not aware of the magnitude of this, the victors really do write history.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3664526/How-three-million-Germans-died-after-VE-Day.html

 

[Relic]

That's an amazing statement, considering what the Nazis did to Poland. I wonder if some of those feelings could be due to the fact that the Russians were there much longer, or that they were there more recently? I'm no fan of the Russians, but they didn't set out to destroy the country as the Nazi's did. The Nazis clearly wanted to make a statement that "if you resist, we will do to you what we have done to Poland"

Not really believe it or not. There were mass deportations to Siberia, executions, rapes, you name it. We just know more about the Nazis because we've been conditioned to believe that they were the ultimate evil.
The Russians (Soviets actually) didn't set out to destroy a country, they set out to destroy and rebuild a society.
Why did Katyn happen? Think of it that way.

 

[Tony In Philly]

Sorry to drift so far from the original D-Day topic; some of the other posts on this regarding the subsequent events after D-Day are right up my alley as far as historical interests go.

With regard to this whole collapse of the Third Reich topic, one of the best movies I have ever seen in is Downfall (Der Untergang):

http://www.amazon.com/Downfall-Bruno-Ganz/dp/B0009RCPUC