On my '75 P the dead spot is at Eb (G string, 8th fret), on the ESP P it's the C# at 6th fret. Neither of those really bother me as the dead spots aren't in the money note area.
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Dead Spots on Fenders..Huh?
- Thread starter faulknersj
- Start date
I play a lot of old school blues, R&B, Motown, etc., that has patterns using the octave above the root, and the 6th and 7th - all on the G string, so they are in my "money note" area. To me, anything below the 12th fret is in the money note area.
The dead spots on my basses are usable, i.e. not totally dead, but with faster decay. I do use all of the range on my basses and if I want a C# with more sustain I play it on the D string at 11th fret, at that position it has normal decay. With the "money note area" I was referring to the lowest fundamentals on the E and A.
Dead spot on my Jazz bass on the G string C, 5th fret. Never noticed until I strung my bass with flats. Back to rounds and it's less noticeable, but now I know it's there, I hear it.
Also noticed it when I use my Boss OC-2 Octave pedal. It just doesn't want to track that note.
Also noticed it when I use my Boss OC-2 Octave pedal. It just doesn't want to track that note.
No manufacturer can avoid the problem 100%. Some guys will try different things out. Roger Sadowsky adds graphite rods to the necks and has thickened the headstocks of his basses to help minimize the problem. Michael Tobias adds veneers to the headstocks of some of his basses to do the same, but both Rogers and Mike's basses can still have dead spots. Wood is still wood (and graphite is still graphite).
I have a bass with a Warmoth neck with steel bars. Still has a dead spot that is only marginally less than 'standard'.
I am guessing a dead string has a greater ratio of fundamental to overtones, so if the dead spot is robbing out the fundamental there is nothing else to cover the dead spot.
It's an enormously complex system. You would need to computer model it. I know there are some bowed and plucked instrument models that can be run on desktop computers but they have simplifications. I am not sure what it would take to model enough to take into account dead spots, especially given that wood is a complex material and varies from batch to batch, even of the same species. I suspect it is more a case of trial and error on what things work and don't. Although it seems bolt-on necks seem to make dead spots more likely, at least a neck can be replaced so from a manufacturer's point of view a neck with a dead spot isn't a complete loss of an instrument, or a complex rework of a set neck.
- Jun 9, 2013
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- Disclosures
- Bacchus / STR Endorsing Artist and direct Dealer of new and used MIJ Brands.
Yes it is obviously extremely difficult to achieve, and impossible to make an instrument with consistent response all up and down and across the neck, but attention to detail in the build to minimize this is all I'm talking about. Minimize, not eliminate. As you say with a bolt on this can be especially difficult. It's a very interesting and thought provoking topic this!
BassHappy
Supporting Member
Thanks for this - I had never seen this before. Here is the excerpt
"Shortcoming of the original design"?
Wow, I never knew that anyone connected with Fender ever admitted it. Always thought it was the "dirty little secret". Pretty cool, I gained some respect for them in this regard.
Interesting that only "some of the better" bass players noticed the dead spots. I guess the ones that like to play a whole note occasionally.
I guess Leo could have saved himself a lot of trouble with this "Shortcoming" if he had chosen medium scale as the standard to begin with. But I certainly understand, with foam mutes and flats of the day it had to be very hard for anyone to notice the dead notes.
BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
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Yes it is obviously extremely difficult to achieve, and impossible to make an instrument with consistent response all up and down and across the neck, but attention to detail in the build to minimize this is all I'm talking about. Minimize, not eliminate. As you say with a bolt on this can be especially difficult. It's a very interesting and thought provoking topic this!
It's not clear to me that the things a boutique builder might do necessarily make the situation better without evidence from testing. The chances are it does, but you'd need a mulitfactorial analysis of all the things that are done to find out what makes a positive effect on dead spots.
That's an interesting point. If the dead spot is truly sympathetic vibration, then a dead G 5th fret should generate the same at D 10th fret - unless the fretting hand at the higher position serves to dampen.
I wonder by the way if a capo'd note versus a fingered note makes any difference in that regard.
Speaking as a tech, IME some players notice dead spots more than others.
If you play with a really hard attack, if you play mostly busy, up-tempo songs, if you avoid the G string, and/or if you always play with a heavily saturated tone (tube amp on 11 or distortion pedals), you'll likely never notice a dead spot unless it's extremely severe. Why would you care?
If you play a lot of slow ballads with sustained, melodic lines, use a light touch, like a clean, high headroom signal chain with lots of headroom, and especially if you like to play lots of whole notes in the first and second positions on the G string, then you need more sustain between the 5th and 7th fret. In that case, you'll find that close to half the long-scale basses you check out (Fenders are not the only culprit) will have a pronounced dead spot.
In some cases, the "dead spot" is just a slightly thinner tone and a touch less sustain. In others, the rapid decay will be more drastic. The ones that bug me the most, are when the fundamental dies off quickly, but the octave harmonic rings on.
On an instrument that's prone to dead spots, a change in string tension, or even something like a tuner or a capo hanging off the headstock can be enough to affect the severity of the symptoms. The problem isn't always the bass, either. A bad string can mimic a dead spot pretty effectively.
To the OP:
Manufacturers are aware of this. Many of them are on record in interviews, talking about what measures they take to avoid them. Are you suggesting that your experience trumps theirs?
If you're just asking out of idle curiosity, why should we bend over backwards to provide proof of a common problem that every instrument technician on the planet is aware of? Get yer butt off the couch, go down to a store, and check it out for yourself...
Sent from my iPad using TalkBass
If you play with a really hard attack, if you play mostly busy, up-tempo songs, if you avoid the G string, and/or if you always play with a heavily saturated tone (tube amp on 11 or distortion pedals), you'll likely never notice a dead spot unless it's extremely severe. Why would you care?
If you play a lot of slow ballads with sustained, melodic lines, use a light touch, like a clean, high headroom signal chain with lots of headroom, and especially if you like to play lots of whole notes in the first and second positions on the G string, then you need more sustain between the 5th and 7th fret. In that case, you'll find that close to half the long-scale basses you check out (Fenders are not the only culprit) will have a pronounced dead spot.
In some cases, the "dead spot" is just a slightly thinner tone and a touch less sustain. In others, the rapid decay will be more drastic. The ones that bug me the most, are when the fundamental dies off quickly, but the octave harmonic rings on.
On an instrument that's prone to dead spots, a change in string tension, or even something like a tuner or a capo hanging off the headstock can be enough to affect the severity of the symptoms. The problem isn't always the bass, either. A bad string can mimic a dead spot pretty effectively.
To the OP:
Manufacturers are aware of this. Many of them are on record in interviews, talking about what measures they take to avoid them. Are you suggesting that your experience trumps theirs?
If you're just asking out of idle curiosity, why should we bend over backwards to provide proof of a common problem that every instrument technician on the planet is aware of? Get yer butt off the couch, go down to a store, and check it out for yourself...
Sent from my iPad using TalkBass
Thanks for this - I had never seen this before. Here is the excerpt
View attachment 421335
"Shortcoming of the original design"?
Wow, I never knew that anyone connected with Fender ever admitted it. Always thought it was the "dirty little secret". Pretty cool, I gained some respect for them in this regard.
Interesting that only "some of the better" bass players noticed the dead spots. I guess the ones that like to play a whole note occasionally.
I guess Leo could have saved himself a lot of trouble with this "Shortcoming" if he had chosen medium scale as the standard to begin with. But I certainly understand, with foam mutes and flats of the day it had to be very hard for anyone to notice the dead notes.
BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
Not only have they admitted it, they even sell devices to counteract dead spots.
Invalid Link Removed
Often there is a lesser dead spot on the corresponding spot on other strings. But it does tend to be less. Maybe that is a different balance of overtones on a thicker string played up high compared to the G string meaning that when frequencies are robbed out by the resonances it is less obvious, or maybe it is for other reasons. In theory it is testable with some frequency analysis.
No good if you have a Gibson or Rickenbacker with a dead spot, though.
I have a lamp which has an attachment for attaching it to a desk which is much cheaper than one of the official ones. I might have to try it to see if it is heavy enough as it would be a dead spot device... with a free lamp.
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