dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[Marcus Willett]

a DI is used instead of a mic is because it's easier.

Quoting myself on this one....jeez

I remembered that just recently I had given in to this temptation. I was recording some tracks at my studio when my friend brought his 12 string guitar over. We were in a bit of a time crunch and he had a nice pickup system built in so I said "Screw it, let's just go DI."

We did and it sounded good. We finished quicker than expected so I thought "What the heck, let's mic it and try another pass." There was total agreement from both of us that the air and organic quality of the mic'ed tone was much better and far more pleasing.

Now sure nowadays there are a lot of plug-ins and whatnot that can do a good job of emulating that with a DI signal. But that sorta defeats the time-saving angle and just IMO, there is nothing quite like actually micing the guitar...there's a certain magic in that than cannot be duplicated otherwise.

 

[JimmyM]

Honestly, I don't find it hard to mic a cab at all. Stick the mic on the speaker in the middle, and turn it up. Anything else you'd do to it, you'd have to do it with a DI as well.

And if a sound company can't protect their speakers with a mic, what makes you think they'll be able to do it with a DI? I don't really care about the sound company and their speakers...my band is the reason people are there, so what I say goes. Sorry.

 

[kalle74]

I view it this way (as a bass player and a sound engineer):

A driver in a cab has limited bandwidth. This is good for distorted guitar, since 12" speakers don´t reproduce the shrill high-end well (making the sound more pleasant). However, with bass it´s a compromise... A 10" speaker´s bandwidth is roughly 80Hz to 5kHz and most 15"´s do 50Hz to 2kHz. Depending on which speaker size you prefer (mic placement and choice not included, I´ll assume one with with a very linear response) you´ll lose some extreme or the other...

DI will "catch it all". So, when looking for a hi-fi, fullrange sound, DI does it better. If, however, speakers (and amp) are important in achieving a specific sound (cone cry etc.) mics rate better. IMO, micing the cones is good for "character"...

I´ll put up both, so I can blend the player´s "personal preferred sound" with taut DI lows (I´ll high-pass the mic if need be) for best of both worlds.

Neither approach is better, per se, only different...

 

[Marcus Willett]

Honestly, I don't find it hard to mic a cab at all. Stick the mic on the speaker in the middle, and turn it up. Anything else you'd do to it, you'd have to do it with a DI as well.

I tend to agree actually, but I hear that complaint a lot and placement can be a bit tricky, but I also think it's not nearly the big deal most people would make it out to be.

 

[JimmyM]

I view it this way (as a bass player and a sound engineer):

A driver in a cab has limited bandwidth. This is good for distorted guitar, since 12" speakers don´t reproduce the shrill high-end well (making the sound more pleasant). However, with bass it´s a compromise... A 10" speaker´s bandwidth is roughly 80Hz to 5kHz and most 15"´s do 50Hz to 2kHz. Depending on which speaker size you prefer (mic placement and choice not included, I´ll assume one with with a very linear response) you´ll lose some extreme or the other...

DI will "catch it all". So, when looking for a hi-fi, fullrange sound, DI does it better. If, however, speakers (and amp) are important in achieving a specific sound (cone cry etc.) mics rate better. IMO, micing the cones is good for "character"...

I´ll put up both, so I can blend the player´s "personal preferred sound" with taut DI lows (I´ll high-pass the mic if need be) for best of both worlds.

Neither approach is better, per se, only different...

I would agree with that last statement. But it should be the bass player's choice, not the soundman's.

 

[JimmyM]

I tend to agree actually, but I hear that complaint a lot and placement can be a bit tricky, but I also think it's not nearly the big deal most people would make it out to be.

Right. Some soundmen are just wussies.

 

[sonic assassin]

A 10" speaker´s bandwidth is roughly 80Hz to 5kHz and most 15"´s do 50Hz to 2kHz.

yay! exactly!

DI will "catch it all". So, when looking for a hi-fi, fullrange sound, DI does it better.

BOOOO! screw hi fi. i run a grindy passive bass for a reason.

 

[Marcus Willett]

i run a grindy passive bass for a reason.

Well then you're just wrong, don't you get it? Bass is supposed to sound a certain specific way regardless of genre or style....jeez.

 

[dave_p]

I view it this way (as a bass player and a sound engineer):

A driver in a cab has limited bandwidth. This is good for distorted guitar, since 12" speakers don´t reproduce the shrill high-end well (making the sound more pleasant). However, with bass it´s a compromise... A 10" speaker´s bandwidth is roughly 80Hz to 5kHz and most 15"´s do 50Hz to 2kHz. Depending on which speaker size you prefer (mic placement and choice not included, I´ll assume one with with a very linear response) you´ll lose some extreme or the other...

DI will "catch it all". So, when looking for a hi-fi, fullrange sound, DI does it better. If, however, speakers (and amp) are important in achieving a specific sound (cone cry etc.) mics rate better. IMO, micing the cones is good for "character"...

I´ll put up both, so I can blend the player´s "personal preferred sound" with taut DI lows (I´ll high-pass the mic if need be) for best of both worlds.

Neither approach is better, per se, only different...

also: for bass frequencies, the actual waves coming from the cones are long, some measured in feet or 10's of feet. a mike an inch or 2 from the cone is not going to give you your amps "sound" as much as a person thinks it is. a mike in the men's room will likely give a GREAT bass tone.

and for the clowns saying laziness or easier. get a grip, i just miked up a drum kit, 2 guitars, 3 vocal mikes etc. you really think its that much easier to go into a box and grab a DI, or for me to grab one more mic, cable and stand and run the cable to the snake. it takes a minute to mike up an amp and run that cable. thats NOT the reason. sure there are lazy, incompetent soundmen out there. i've had the pleasure of working with and for some of the best guys in my area, when they give me a DI box, I use it. and i am secure that they are not done getting me right and dialed in in the mix until we hear a beer bottle or ashtray hit the floor.

 

[BigMac5]

also: for bass frequencies, the actual waves coming from the cones are long, some measured in feet or 10's of feet. a mike an inch or 2 from the cone is not going to give you your amps "sound" as much as a person thinks it is. a mike in the men's room will likely give a GREAT bass tone.

How are we able to hear those frequencies with headphones?

 

[()smoke()]

there's a local venue where we've started playing recently that has fantastic sound, and the sound engineers are really cool and good at the job

the guy at the board puts out a great mix for the space, and the team running the stage are very cool to go with a DI and mic and blend my signal...they are both down to earth and enjoy the job--i think this goes a long way, and the sound quality reinforces that notion

for my sound, i'm actually usually happy with a DI only, so long as there isn't too drastic eq applied for foh--i like this because i like the sound of my bass straight in, and i usually have my amp and cabs set up to approximate this sound anyway...and a lot of the smaller places we play, my amp serves to fill in the near-stage gaps

...but if i played my svt at overdriven levels, i'd prefer a mic for sure

 

[dave_p]

How are we able to hear those frequencies with headphones?

while i see what you are saying, headphones fall short. you cant feel the bass in your chest, or slowly vibrate a beer bottle off of the table and onto the floor with the bass in your "cans"

an amp moves more air. thats part of the tone of the amp, as produced by a cohesive system (head, cab, speakers, waves produced). what im saying is that close miking will not capture all of that, as our friend who posted the point prior to me has stated.

again, a sound engineer gives mikes freely to who needs them on stage, i highly doubt that bass players are just arbitrarily being dealt a short hand for no reason. they give you a DI for a reason. a good engineer may give you a mike too.

 

[JimmyM]

also: for bass frequencies, the actual waves coming from the cones are long, some measured in feet or 10's of feet. a mike an inch or 2 from the cone is not going to give you your amps "sound" as much as a person thinks it is. a mike in the men's room will likely give a GREAT bass tone.

This is an old wives' tale that your basic set of headphones disproves on a daily basis. Once it comes out of the speaker, the wave is there for anyone to hear, and it does not need to "develop" to its full length to be heard. If bass is stronger in the back of the room, it's because of room reflections, not wavelength development.

and for the clowns saying laziness or easier. get a grip, i just miked up a drum kit, 2 guitars, 3 vocal mikes etc. you really think its that much easier to go into a box and grab a DI, or for me to grab one more mic, cable and stand and run the cable to the snake. it takes a minute to mike up an amp and run that cable. thats NOT the reason. sure there are lazy, incompetent soundmen out there. i've had the pleasure of working with and for some of the best guys in my area, when they give me a DI box, I use it. and i am secure that they are not done getting me right and dialed in in the mix until we hear a beer bottle or ashtray hit the floor.

No, that IS the reason, since most soundmen have a DI ready to go when you get there. But if you ask for a mic, that means they have to go back in the box and dig one out for you, unless you do as I used to do and bring your own.

Nobody's saying that a DI isn't perfectly valid...we're saying that some don't want a DI, and the soundman shouldn't be making the decision.

 

[dave_p]

This is an old wives' tale that your basic set of headphones disproves on a daily basis. Once it comes out of the speaker, the wave is there for anyone to hear, and it does not need to "develop" to its full length to be heard. If bass is stronger in the back of the room, it's because of room reflections, not wavelength development.

i never said anything about the wave developing or blooming to be heard. you can hear the note a foot away from the cab, an inch away even. i dont dispute that. i do maintain that close micing a bass cab is not going to give you the sound of the rig that you hear a few feet away.

and it is science, not an old wives tale that low frequency waves are long. they are. thats it.

 

[akaTRENT]

i never said anything about the wave developing or blooming to be heard. you can hear the note a foot away from the cab, an inch away even. i dont dispute that. i do maintain that close micing a bass cab is not going to give you the sound of the rig that you hear a few feet away.

and it is science, not an old wives tale that low frequency waves are long. they are. thats it.

Of course not, but the tone is definatly
some of the tone of my amp. the di isnt gonna do that.

And btw you guys that are all about the DI, and getting snarky, if its so great than sell your amps and cabs because you obviously don't need them.

This of course excludes anyone who actually uses DI only and no rig

 

[JimmyM]

When you say that a mic in the men's room will give a better bass sound than up close, then you are, indeed, keeping the myth alive. Yes, the waves are long, but that has zip-all to do with how we hear them.

As far as mic placement, some agree with you, and that's why they'll ambient mic a bass cab sometimes from a few feet away in the studio. This, however, is impractical for the stage, so it's close mic'ed. Maybe it's not 100% identical to the actual cab, but it's way closer than any other method that's practical for the stage. But just for gits and shiggles, let's assume for a second that it's not way closer...

1. Does it sound more like a cab than a DI?

2. Does it sound great?

Since the answers to both questions are a resounding "yes," I'm not seeing the problem you're trying to create.

 

[dave_p]

Of course not, but the tone is definatly
some of the tone of my amp. the di isnt gonna do that.

And btw you guys that are all about the DI, and getting snarky, if its so great than sell your amps and cabs because you obviously don't need them.

This of course excludes anyone who actually uses DI only and no rig

well. some of the tone of your amp is going to make it off the stage and into the audience anyway. a better representation, because its just the sound straight from the amp, not colored by the system.

and for the most part, from my experience anyway, if you have a particular thing thats integral to your sound (distortion, chorus, flange or whatever) any decent soundguy is going to work with you if you seem knowledgable about what you have and what you need.

theres a lot of infighting just between engineers. at festivals, where you mix on some other companies PA they will lock down the compressors and stuff and limit the hell out of system. usually if you display competence, mix at a reasoable level and respect the system, they will open the system up for you. what that has to do with anything is this: sound people are a strange bunch. pretentious, competitive and quirky. but the majority i come across are knowledgeable. all im really saying here is that although you have your reasons(any bassplayer) they have theirs(any engineer). if you work with the same company or house guy more than once, chances are they will listen better and try to accomodate you better.

whenever i have done gigs with a big enough system to do the work, my amp is merely for stage monitoring. if you want to put me in a wedge, ill gladly leave the amp home. you have a backline rig? awesome, ill use that. i know the guy behind the desk will do his best to have me slamming in the mix.

there are arguments to be made on all sides. endless arguments it seems.

 

[Marcus Willett]

and for the clowns saying laziness or easier. get a grip

Yeah, that clown would be me, and my grip is fine.

I've done enough gigs to see what I'm talking about many, many times. There are good soundmen out there to be sure but ones who are willing to give the bass any more time than plug in/play a few notes/ok, good lets go..as opposed to the time they will spend on just about anything else...those guys are rare.

A DI isn't necessarily a good or bad route, but it is not presumptively correct and regardless I should get the same amount of time and consideration that a guitarist gets, which is usually some discussion and interchange about what kind of tone he wants and often the soundman coming up on stage to hear his rig and understand what the guitarist is going for.

Try doing that as a bassist and see the response you get (I have). It's generally that you're being "difficult"...yes, I would call that lazy.

 

[Gearhead17]

I agree with what Jimmy M was getting at. Bass players are treated like 2nd rate citizens on stage when it comes to tone while guitarists are like kings. In reality, guitar tones and sounds are hugely important for the audience, but a good bass tone just makes everything sound a lot better. Try listening to Rap or most rock on a crappy sound system (not much bass), you might go crazy....

If soundguys would just give us the time of day on our tone choices, we would all complain a lot less. We should all have the option of a direct box and/or mic at every show. We have this gear with us for a reason, can they just work with us? A mic may not be the best choice to get our exact rig sound, but if at least 50% of our stage tone was mixed in with our direct tone - wouldn't that be great? I would be a lot happier for sure.

 

[JimmyM]

Right on, 17! Also, how come soundmen never tell guitarists that the mic'ed tone of their amp sounds nothing like the sound of the amp itself? There's a lot of hypocrisy going on here, and I for one am sick of it when having to deal with soundmen who think they know way more about how you should sound than you do. I hate pulling rank on soundmen (or anyone for that matter), but when the soundmen start drawing the people into the venue, then they can have their say over me. Till then, I have final say. I have to listen to Bowzer when he tells me to turn down, and the soundman has to listen to the musicians when they want something done a certain way, regardless of whether they think it's a good idea or not.