dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[smeet]

how come soundmen never tell guitarists that the mic'ed tone of their amp sounds nothing like the sound of the amp itself?

Excellent point!!! Hmm.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Yeah, that clown would be me, and my grip is fine.

I've done enough gigs to see what I'm talking about many, many times. There are good soundmen out there to be sure but ones who are willing to give the bass any more time than plug in/play a few notes/ok, good lets go..as opposed to the time they will spend on just about anything else...those guys are rare.

A DI isn't necessarily a good or bad route, but it is not presumptively correct and regardless I should get the same amount of time and consideration that a guitarist gets, which is usually some discussion and interchange about what kind of tone he wants and often the soundman coming up on stage to hear his rig and understand what the guitarist is going for.

Try doing that as a bassist and see the response you get (I have). It's generally that you're being "difficult"...yes, I would call that lazy.

I hear you, Marcus. My experience has been that the guy running the board at FOH seldom ventures onto the stage to hear the sound I'm trying to create for myself - especially in larger venues: the sound emanating from bass cabinets changes markedly the farther it gets from my position on stage. The guy running the monitor console is one of the few members of the sound crew in a position to clearly hear what my bass sounds like on stage - and he seldom has any influence over the guy running the FOH console.

By the time the venue's acoustics have perturbed my sound on its way to the guy running the board, he has little or no idea of what my sound preferences are, and has little chance to reproduce it: laziness comes into play when he presumes what my bass should sound like, instead of walking on stage, listening to my rig first-hand, and trying to reproduce "my sound" throughout the venue. That said, all bets are off if my on-stage volume or EQ overwhelm the room - there's little that can be done from FOH if I'm foolish enough to create uncontrollable LF standing waves or raise the noise floor beyond common sense levels.

The worst of these Sound Reinforcement (SR) professionals behave as though their experience and "golden ears" trump my preferences as a musician; they seem to behave as though they're entitled to be an arbiter of taste, instead of a reproducer of sound; maybe they think SR stands for Sound Reinterpretation. The best work skillfully and diligently to reproduce my sound for the audience.

 

[Marcus Willett]

By the time the venue's acoustics have perturbed my sound on its way to the guy running the board, he has little or no idea of what my sound preferences are, and has little chance to reproduce it: laziness comes into play when he presumes what my bass should sound like, instead of walking on stage, listening to my rig first-hand, and trying to reproduce "my sound" throughout the venue. That said, all bets are off if my on-stage volume or EQ overwhelm the room - there's little that can be done from FOH if I'm foolish enough to create uncontrollable LF standing waves or raise the noise floor beyond common sense levels.

I don't disagree with this, but this is true of all instruments and all sources. Only with bass do you get excuses like "It needs to be DI in case his amp goes down" (what about the guitarist?) or "Your rig is not going to sound the same with a mic as it does to you" (that's true of all rigs and all mics)

What I'm getting at is the general tendency of soundmen (and musicians in general) to treat the bass as if it's some sort of necessary evil that they just want to get out of the way.

A few questions to ask.
1) Does what I want my tone to be matter?

If no, why not? And as a follow-up why does the guitarists desire for his tone matter and not mine?

If yes, 2) How is the soundman to have any idea what that is if he does not come up and hear my rig? If he just hands me a DI, then by definition it's going to be the tone he thinks is "correct".

The justifications for this could just as easily apply to guitar or even moreso an organ with a leslie which can produce every bit as much low end as bass (and be just as tricky) but of course must be miced because that's part of the sound. No one ever questions that, and soundmen will always accommodate.

This is not true with bass, and the real reason is a double standard.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I don't disagree with this, but this is true of all instruments and all sources. Only with bass do you get excuses like "It needs to be DI in case his amp goes down" (what about the guitarist?) or "Your rig is not going to sound the same with a mic as it does to you" (that's true of all rigs and all mics)

What I'm getting at is the general tendency of soundmen (and musicians in general) to treat the bass as if it's some sort of necessary evil that they just want to get out of the way.

A few questions to ask.
1) Does what I want my tone to be matter?

If no, why not? And as a follow-up why does the guitarists desire for his tone matter and not mine?

If yes, 2) How is the soundman to have any idea what that is if he does not come up and hear my rig? If he just hands me a DI, then by definition it's going to be the tone he thinks is "correct".

The justifications for this could just as easily apply to guitar or even moreso an organ with a leslie which can produce every bit as much low end as bass (and be just as tricky) but of course must be miced because that's part of the sound. No one ever questions that, and soundmen will always accommodate.

This is not true with bass, and the real reason is [it's] a double standard.

I think we're in agreement, Marcus.

It's a bass double standard, or perhaps a double-bass standard.

 

[walterw]

If yes, 2) How is the soundman to have any idea what that is if he does not come up and hear my rig? If he just hands me a DI, then by definition it's going to be the tone he thinks is "correct".

hence the suggestion to do whatever it takes to get "your" tone into that box! (or at least into that cable if you bring your own mic.)

hell, even as a guitar player, i have my own mic, placed where i want it, and on the (rare for me in small club-land) occasion where i'm not also doing the sound, the guy gets what i want to give him, and that's it.

being able to say "just give me a mic cable, i've got it from there" will make most good soundmen think you have your s**t together and trust you, and most bad soundmen happy to not pay attention to you anymore.

 

[sonic assassin]

i know the guy behind the desk will do his best to have me slamming in the mix.

thats naive. either that or you're filthy rich and the sound guys do exactly as you say.

 

[Marcus Willett]

hence the suggestion to do whatever it takes to get "your" tone into that box!

I agree, but unfortunately the vast majority of soundmen I've dealt with (not just in this area either) seem to have the attitude that it must be free of any coloration and that's the only way they can get it to sound "right" in the house (which by definition means their idea of "right").

 

[Marcus Willett]

I think we're in agreement, Marcus.

Yeah, I actually skimmed through your post too quickly (my bad) to really fully absorb before responding.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

WOW, I never thought You guys have it so bad. Being surrounded with incompetent and lazy employees.

After all it is You, personally or the band, who pays the soundperson to do his job, right?

If I pay someone to do something for me, it's me, no-one else, who tells them how it should be done and how IT IS done. Otherwise it's bye bye. And if the work they've "done" puts me in a bad light, I won't pay them fully either.

I truly feel sorry about the state of the professionalism over there, I really do.

Regards
Sam

 

[akaTRENT]

Hi.

WOW, I never thought You guys have it so bad. Being surrounded with incompetent and lazy employees.

After all it is You, personally or the band, who pays the soundperson to do his job, right?

If I pay someone to do something for me, it's me, no-one else, who tells them how it should be done and how IT IS done. Otherwise it's bye bye. And if the work they've "done" puts me in a bad light, I won't pay them fully either.

I truly feel sorry about the state of the professionalism over there, I really do.

Regards
Sam

with out bands to mix, the sound guys out of a job, so think about that. and we get screwed by not getting paid and having to sell 300 dollars worth of tickets to pay the sound guy. so yes we did pay him.

 

[JimmyM]

hence the suggestion to do whatever it takes to get "your" tone into that box! (or at least into that cable if you bring your own mic.)

hell, even as a guitar player, i have my own mic, placed where i want it, and on the (rare for me in small club-land) occasion where i'm not also doing the sound, the guy gets what i want to give him, and that's it.

being able to say "just give me a mic cable, i've got it from there" will make most good soundmen think you have your s**t together and trust you, and most bad soundmen happy to not pay attention to you anymore.

If only it were that simple. When I went out and bought myself a $350 mic to mic my cab, I thought the same thing you did. And by and large, that's what happened. But for every 4 gigs I did that were problem-free, there was one where the soundman was completely dicky about my $350 mic because he wanted my signal to be what HE wanted, not what I wanted. I even had a dude totally trick me and asked me if he could run a DI along with my mic, and me not wanting to be difficult, I said OK, then he shut my mic off for the show. Still burns my ass up to think about it!

But you know what? I'm not taking it anymore! The soundman will get exactly what I want to give him, and if he doesn't like it, he can go pound sand.

RISE UP, BASS PLAYERS! Demand your fair share of the mix! Don't let the soundman keep you down! The people are there to see YOU, not the soundman, and don't be afraid to remind soundmen of that fact when they give you crap!

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

with out bands to mix, the sound guys out of a job, so think about that.

So You have a shortage of bands and exess of soundpersons in Your area too? Hard to believe, but anything's possible I guess.

and we get screwed by not getting paid and having to sell 300 dollars worth of tickets to pay the sound guy. so yes we did pay him.

Pay to play?

IMHO that's not getting screwed over, that's bending over. There's a difference You know.

And no, You didn't pay the soundperson, you paid for the privilidge to play.

I can work for free or play for free if I feel like it, but never in a million years would I pay for doing so.

Byt You guys did, and now the blame goes to....

THE SOUNDMAN

Regards
Sam

 

[JimmyM]

Two completely unrelated subjects, Sam, except for the fact that they raised the money to pay the guy by selling tickets and drawing people into the club. Regardless of your opinion of pay to play, that makes them the draw, which means they should get what they want in a mix.

 

[dave_p]

thats naive. either that or you're filthy rich and the sound guys do exactly as you say.

nah, you get me wrong. i am just fortunate enough to get to work with really cool dudes, who take sound seriously. so spoiled maybe, naive and rich..no.

this has been a very entertaining and informative discussion so far.

as far as bass players being second class citizens and all that.
did a small arts festival (doing sound w/ my younger brother who is an excellent engineer) a few weeks ago. bassd player in the band had a little mark 2, he wanted to use the DI in it, didnt ask for a mic. we used the lm2 DI, no fuss. some engineers would insist you use their DI's(happened to me all the time). we let him get his sound, and he noticed a tiny tiny delay between his amp and FOH. we took the time to sit and calculate, and then delay the subs in the FOH by 8 feet to eliminate this until he was happy. thats the kind of people i am accustomed to working with. if he wanted a mic, we would have given him one.

 

[akaTRENT]

Two completely unrelated subjects, Sam, except for the fact that they raised the money to pay the guy by selling tickets and drawing people into the club. Regardless of your opinion of pay to play, that makes them the draw, which means they should get what they want in a mix.

In NJ you usually have to pay to play as we mostly only have vfw shows, put on by young promoters. Thats cool cuz its diy.

But when the bar does it to us, and doesnt even do their end of the promotion its a pretty nasty deal.

 

[modulusman]

Well if you ever get far enough up the foodchain to get a gaurantee then you can start dictating terms to the soundman. Until then you are SOL.

 

[akaTRENT]

Well if you ever get far enough up the foodchain to get a gaurantee then you can start dictating terms to the soundman. Until then you are SOL.

Thats an ignorant statement.

 

[JackANSI]

with out bands to mix, the sound guys out of a job, so think about that. and we get screwed by not getting paid and having to sell 300 dollars worth of tickets to pay the sound guy. so yes we did pay him.

Without bands to mix, a soundguy will just turn DJ... He'll still pack the house, and not have to split it with anyone else or put up with anyone he doesn't want to..

Least around here, DJ's make as much, sometimes more, than a real band does. (But thats also because people's taste in music around here is usually sampled (real) music with someone rapping over it)


Still, its the sound guy's rig, if you don't have authority over him, you've got to do it his way. Whats so hard to understand about that?

The bassists who don't get their mic when they want it, seem to just have communication issues with the soundguy. If you're gonna be a prima donna about your tone like a guitarist, then go all the way, refuse to play until you have your brown M&M's and a mic in front of your cab. Problem solved.


And so far I see one argument from the mic crowd; if guitarists get a mic, why not bassists? Well thats because theres a slight difference in how each operates and the frequency it covers. All things being equal, yes, what works on one will work on the other, but all things are not equal.

 

[modulusman]

Thats an ignorant statement.

No I am just being realistic. The two guys that are really pushing my way or the highway in this thread are Jimmy M and Marcus. Both play with national acts. Meanwhile Pay to play bands are doing four band FUBAR gigs. The soundguys at these are generally less experienced, using inferior PAs. They probably see 20 bands a week of which half are just plain awful, with a couple really good and the rest just OK.

 

[JackANSI]

He is perfectly free to run any board or cabs he wants, but the delivery system is mine. Last time we had this argument, it was a mic. I'm now back on a DI for the most part, but I bring my own. I pretty much have to since I run a speaker DI on an SVT for most gigs now. I've decided I like the speaker DI sound enough to not worry about the mic anymore, but I'm using my own DI and that's that.

JimmyM, I'm partly in shock that you've backed away from a mic... What DI did you decide on again?