dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[Billnc]

What is the difference between miking my cab, and miking an acoustic bass? or, low end of piano?
I always ask for a mic. Whatever answer I get I never argue, for shows where it really matters (they all do I know, but..) the soundman is usually pretty damn good. The biggest companies have worked every style of music there is.

 

[fokof]

To those who have never actually done it, there is a HUGE difference between what a mic on a speaker hears, and what the guy playing the bass hears. He hears all the drivers in a multi driver cab, comb filtering, adding AND subtracting to/from each other. He hears the cab's resonance, the stage resonance, all of that. And, guess what, move the mic as little as a half an inch, or change the angle, and the mic signal is ENTIRELY different once again.

Thanx for the explanaton .
That's what I mean when I say you can't capture an 8/10 coupling with a mic.

Well put.

 

[akaTRENT]

what always gets to me about those who defend the DI is that ive never had a sound guy tell me to play and THEN decide what he wants to run. it was always "heres the mic we always use" or "heres the DI we always use". i run very little low end on my bass signal. all about the high mid grind and a decent bottom end (focused more at 150-300hz). and they dont neglect to mic my cab because its too bassy, they do so because they are lazy or dont know better.

Exactly.

 

[fokof]

What is the difference between miking my cab, and miking an acoustic bass? or, low end of piano?

A piano is the thoughest instrument to mike , period.
The problem ia that it resonates 360° , and wherever you'll put the mike , you'll loose something. You have to choose what you're able to loose.

An acoustic bass is also very though to mike. If the guy plays near a loud instrument , the sound will rebound on the surface and be picked up by the mike. You'll have more stage garbage than upright signal.
Same is true with a cello. Just miked one tonite with an omni mike
(the player absolutly wanted to use her omni mike...........nightmare)

Miking your cab ; depends of the type of driver and if you have ports.
The low end of a miked cab will always be (100% of the times) less tight than with a DI.
That's why the vast majority of bass players uses a DI..

 

[akaTRENT]

Some pictures from the aforementioned gig i just received!
Link Removed
"Me keeping a stiff upper lip to stay professional even though Im pissed."


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"Biting my tongue... again, to keep it professional."


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"reading glasses."


Now back to the DI VS MIC madness

 

[Marcus Willett]

The low end of a miked cab will always be (100% of the times) less tight than with a DI.

I don't disagree but "tight" is not the be-all-to-end-all of bass tone. It is not necessarily what the music or the bassist calls for. It quite often is but usually people like cilantro in their salsa and I hate it. Don't assume I'm OK with it just because the last 20 people were; and just like with music there is no "correct" way it should be.

Plus you pay a price for that tightness in other areas of the tone...it does not come free which I why I say the best solution is both.

 

[JimmyM]

Thanx for the explanaton .
That's what I mean when I say you can't capture an 8/10 coupling with a mic.

Well put.

Yeah, that's what they teach the kids at Full Sail, but my ears tell me a whole different story. The coupling effect isn't necessary since the PA creates its own. You put an accurate mic on a single 10" in an 810 dead center of the cone and you'll get the sound of the cab in the recording. Is it a dead-on, 100% match? Of course not, but it's 99% closer than you'll ever get with a DI running direct from the bass.

But let's say it's not even close...who gives a crap? If that's what the bassist wants, who is the soundman to question it? You don't know the tonal goal of the band. If that's their sound, that's their sound, and a good soundman respects it while a bad soundman tries to fight the band on it. At the end of the day, it's the band that everyone's there to see, not the soundman. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Also, this business about the low end not being as tight when you mic a cab? Completely untrue. The tightness of the low end is an EQ function, not a signal function. Roll off the appropriate amount of lows to get rid of the mud in the mix and the low end tightens up considerably whether it's through a DI or a mic'ed amp. You think a DI doesn't produce enough low end to cause mud? HA!

Come on, guys...haven't you been lectured by me enough on this? Work with the band, not against them!

 

[JimmyM]

BTW, Trent, the fact that you're wearing earplugs speaks volumes about your stage volume. So now I'm thinking that the soundman was absolutely right to do what he did

 

[GregShadoan]

I hear ya...happened to me a couple times as well. Next time, unplug the DI.

Do that with a live DI, and you may have more of a problem than you want. Replaceing speakers for example. I'm just saying.....

 

[JimmyM]

Do that with a live DI, and you may have more of a problem than you want. Replaceing speakers for example. I'm just saying.....

If you're a soundman, you should be very concerned about that while you double cross the bassist, especially when he's helping to pay for you to be there.

 

[sonic assassin]

Yeah, that's what they teach the kids at Full Sail, but my ears tell me a whole different story.

ill take that as my very own jimmyM ringtone. they actually didnt teach us **** about bass cabs. we had a couple interactive lectures about micing live sources. they spent a lot of time on drums, a lot of time on a guitar amp (close, distant, open back cab, LD mic, SD mic). they spent about a half hour on bass. they put up a D112 on an ampeg cab and handed me the ric .

they spent most of the time talking about bass (a collective hour in my entire year at full sail) going DI. no one questioned it, because the group mindset was "why bother micing it.. you dont need to". it sickened me, and i was ALWAYS the kid in class you would have something smart to say about micing the cab.

The coupling effect isn't necessary since the PA creates its own. You put an accurate mic on a single 10" in an 810 dead center of the cone and you'll get the sound of the cab in the recording. Is it a dead-on, 100% match? Of course not, but it's 99% closer than you'll ever get with a DI running direct from the bass.

amen

If that's their sound, that's their sound, and a good soundman respects it while a bad soundman tries to fight the band on it. At the end of the day, it's the band that everyone's there to see, not the soundman. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

i havent met a soundguy in cincinnati that CARED about MY sound.

Also, this business about the low end not being as tight when you mic a cab? Completely untrue. The tightness of the low end is an EQ function, not a signal function. Roll off the appropriate amount of lows to get rid of the mud in the mix and the low end tightens up considerably whether it's through a DI or a mic'ed amp. You think a DI doesn't produce enough low end to cause mud? HA!

DI is the ultimate mud if left unchecked. nothing gets filtered out when it gets to the board (other than every bit of note definition apparently) unless they do so. they sure as hell arent making sure to cut the signal at 50 hz and making sure the 80hz boom is in check. they SURE as hell arent listening to me on stage and thinking "this guy has a lot of aggressive upper mid, i should bump the 800-3k". hes thinking "my balls are shaking in fear, the bass is fine".

meanwhile im sitting on stage with my ear to the amp wondering what ****ing note im hitting because tony the sound prick is sending me a wall of mud through the monitors that i asked him to hi-pass at 200 hz but he wasnt smart enough to hook that up.

i know damn well theres an extra graphic EQ in there and a monitor path insert. hook it up, numbnuts.

 

[TribalEagle]

BTW, Trent, the fact that you're wearing earplugs speaks volumes about your stage volume. So now I'm thinking that the soundman was absolutely right to do what he did

Alltho there is a smiley I must comment...

I use earplugs or IEM`s (allmost) allways.. Not because my bass is loud, but because the drums are. Ride or crash next to your ear is nightmare..
If you are thinking that "should I use my earplugs tonight", use them..

And I would like share positive soundman exprerience here:
We had this small, 1/2h set with our theater croup.
The idea was to play all the songs from the theater show. About 1500 people where expected.
I brought my little Ampeg and 1x12 cab.
Soundman came in and asked if can he use the build in DI of my amp (Of course he could). I gave him pre eq signal what he wanted and plugged in the xlr.
Soundman comes back and starts to mic my cab (my cheap behringer 1x12 !! with sennheiser e606 ).
I said to him that it is not necessary to mic it.
His reply was: "Nah.. It`s so easy to mic it, that we can attleast try to use it. It may sound really good and I can then blend the signals to get the best sound"
After that we made proper sound check for every instrument.
True story

 

[akaTRENT]

BTW, Trent, the fact that you're wearing earplugs speaks volumes about your stage volume. So now I'm thinking that the soundman was absolutely right to do what he did

Dont let the plugs fool you, I always wear them nand have been at every show since i was 16. So I'd say by this point im used to it, and I always make sure to check my levels with the plugs off. Usually for the the drums. My left ear is a bit messy so i dont test it, I wanna have my hearing when i get to your age haha.

 

[akaTRENT]

Alltho there is a smiley I must comment...

I use earplugs or IEM`s (allmost) allways.. Not because my bass is loud, but because the drums are. Ride or crash next to your ear is nightmare..
If you are thinking that "should I use my earplugs tonight", use them..

This is exactly why I wear plugs.

 

[JimmyM]

Dont let the plugs fool you, I always wear them nand have been at every show since i was 16. So I'd say by this point im used to it, and I always make sure to check my levels with the plugs off. Usually for the the drums. My left ear is a bit messy so i dont test it, I wanna have my hearing when i get to your age haha.

Huh?

 

[dave_p]

having worked in a studio and doing live sound (as an engineer, and a bassplayer), i will tell you these decisions are not arbitrary, even though the babies that choose to have fits over it think so. its the sound companies P.A. they know what needs to be done to make you sound good, and to protect their gear.

 

[sonic assassin]

having worked in a studio and doing live sound (as an engineer, and a bassplayer), i will tell you these decisions are not arbitrary, even though the babies that choose to have fits over it think so. its the sound companies P.A. they know what needs to be done to make you sound good, and to protect their gear.

most FOH engineers ive experienced turn **** up too loud as it is. if they wouldnt push everything so hard it wouldnt be a problem.

and they should know their gear can handle it before doing so.

im pretty sure the DI signal has a better chance of wrecking the system. when i hit a low B with authority through some deep distortion and a sub blows out because the sound guy didnt want to mic my cab or recreate my amps tone (with no sub bass), hes going to be SOL.

 

[Jazzdogg]

<SNIP> I sense that everyone thinks I had a fit at the show, it was nothing like that, I even joked with my drummer about it. I pride myself in how professional I am and it has gotten me alot of respect in my area.

On here I come off as a whiner haha but in person Im as professional as it gets.

You said a mouthful in this post!

In this thread it's been very hard for me to reconcile your arguments with your attitude; they're not congruent.

When your posts read as whiny complaints and your profile says you're still a kid, you shouldn't be surprised at the reactions you've elicited; we weren't at the gig to witness your professional comportment firsthand, and the timbre of your posts hasn't done much to identify you as a mature and credible adult.

If you want to be treated as a mature professional, it's incumbent upon you to communicate as though you are a mature professional. Whining/emotional responses are hallmarks of immaturity.

 

[smeet]

having worked in a studio and doing live sound (as an engineer, and a bassplayer), i will tell you these decisions are not arbitrary, even though the babies that choose to have fits over it think so. its the sound companies P.A. they know what needs to be done to make you sound good, and to protect their gear.

Really? Every sound engineer knows exactly how to make every bass player sound good? And it's always the same solution, without any need to listen to what the bass player says or sounds like?

Sorry, but that's just as laughable as saying that every bass player has a great sound and impeccable technique.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Really? Every sound engineer knows exactly how to make every bass player sound good? And it's always the same solution, without any need to listen to what the bass player says or sounds like?

Sorry, but that's just as laughable as saying that every bass player has a great sound and impeccable technique.

Indeed it is. The truth of the matter is that like so many things in life; a DI is used instead of a mic is because it's easier. When it was first introduced, bass rigs (such as they were) were often laughably inadequate and the DI box solved a lot of problems and didn't have any phasing or bleed issues that came along with it. At the time, it made a lot of sense. It became the norm.

Rick Turner once observed how passive mixing of pickups (even with most active systems) is an inferior way to mix them but it's been around so long it's become accepted as standard and it sounds normal to most people. Just because it's the norm doesn't mean it's the best way to go...

This is why we have the classic scenario (if I had a dollar for every time I've gone through this...) where a soundman preemptively assumes a DI for the bass without having any knowledge of what the band is going for, then treats it more-or-less like a binary system. Plug in, play a few notes...OK, we're done...it's on, level is fine. Tone? Whatever...it's just bass....if it's boomy I'll roll off some lows and if it's muddy I'll crank some highs....jeez.

As many have pointed out, it is indeed much trickier to correctly choose and place a mic and make that work. A guitarist will often refuse to go without his amp sound. A lot of keyboardists too; especially if it's organ with a Leslie....after all, it's part of the sound isn't it?

With bass you've got the inertia of an accepted practice working against you (hey we've been doing it that way forever) plus the fact that for many people....hey it's only bass fer chrissake. What are you getting worked up so much for?

Indeed, that mindset would suggest that bass heads and cabs that color the tone in any way at all should be avoided because that not what anyone besides you is gonna hear so why delude yourself in the first place?

I'm sure folks will disagree and that's fine but of the literally thousands of gigs I've played and/or seen I have never (unless he is the bandleader/guy writing the check) seen the bassist get anywhere close to as much time and attention from a soundman, live or in the studio as a guitarist will typically get. And if they do ask for more attention they're usually being "difficult".