dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[akaTRENT]

That's cool - because stirring up a bunch of crap at a gig isn't going to help you, or your band in any way... Personally, I'd rather have too much rig than not enough - especially for playing rock - so "only" having an 810 isn't a bad thing, IMO...

Regarding soundguys, PAs, and playing gigs - the absolute best advice I can give you is to always concentrate on your playing ONLY, and not so much about what goes on with the FOH - because you'll never have as much control over that as you'd like, and not only does battling sound people get old, it can bite you in the ass in more than 1 way - they can intentionally do a crappy job for you and your band, and you can throw off yours and your band's performance by losing the focus you need to put on your best performance every night...

If you play well, and your band sounds good - that'll get through to the crowd - almost inspite of the sound and stage crew...


- georgestrings

i learned that lesson when i was about 15 i think. I was at ngw and the sound guy was glenn. me and my camp friends made fun of him alot.
Now he was the kind of sound guy that would cut your mic if you didnt like what he was saying.

So anyway its the end of the week student concert. I get on stage and long behold all our monitors got turned off...

I learned then never to mess with a sound guy haha

2 thumbs up for that lesson.
Link Removed

 

[Marcus Willett]

the FACT of the matter is that MOST of the time a bass sounds better direct and a guitar sounds better miced

If you want to deal with facts, that is fine. The fact of the matter is your statement is in fact, an opinion. I am confident you can discern the difference.

 

[JimmyM]

Fact or opinion, -I- decide how the bass sounds better, not the soundman. Step on me and deal behind my back and that'll be the last time you work for me if I can help it.

 

[fokof]

Yeah ! Another mike vs Di thread ! Just what we all need !

Trent , I'm bass player/ Soundman.

Some thought on your situation;
- The low frequencies in general are the thoughest part of making a band sound good , standing waves , Bad PA , Room acoustics , Stage leak are all factors that have to be dealt with.
Once the low frequencies are OK , the rest is easy meat (IME)
-When you mike an amp and have a DI , if you don't have the necessary tools , it creates more problems than it resolves, that are phase related , that's why sometimes a choice has to be made.
- In your case , an 8/10 in a small room, your bass amp was probably behind the drummer , 10' to 15' from the front of the stage right?
That means 20' to 25' apart from the PA , so if the soundman didn't have the appropriate equipment to put your amp in phase with the PA (and don't forget that he has to put both DI and amp in phase first)
the miked amped is just gonna add phasing garbage to the overall sound of the band.
So that soundman probably judged that with your leaking sound stage amp (that has no control over)he could save the day with the DI.

You should think of a smaller option (amp) for smaller gigs....

 

[georgestrings]

Fact or opinion, -I- decide how the bass sounds better, not the soundman. Step on me and deal behind my back and that'll be the last time you work for me if I can help it.

Yeah, but you're in a bit of a different situation than Trent is, Jimmy - IMO, him taking the same stance as yours on this issue will be counterproductive...


- georgestrings

 

[modulusman]

Notice how all the guys that play bass and are soundmen are disagreeing with the OP. Maybe since they have been on both sides of the board they might just know something that a bass player doesn't. Georgestrings you hit the nail on the head in your responses in this thread.

 

[akaTRENT]

Yeah ! Another mike vs Di thread ! Just what we all need !

Trent , I'm bass player/ Soundman.

Some thought on your situation;
- The low frequencies in general are the thoughest part of making a band sound good , standing waves , Bad PA , Room acoustics , Stage leak are all factors that have to be dealt with.
Once the low frequencies are OK , the rest is easy meat (IME)
-When you mike an amp and have a DI , if you don't have the necessary tools , it creates more problems than it resolves, that are phase related , that's why sometimes a choice has to be made.
- In your case , an 8/10 in a small room, your bass amp was probably behind the drummer , 10' to 15' from the front of the stage right?
That means 20' to 25' apart from the PA , so if the soundman didn't have the appropriate equipment to put your amp in phase with the PA (and don't forget that he has to put both DI and amp in phase first)
the miked amped is just gonna add phasing garbage to the overall sound of the band.
So that soundman probably judged that with your leaking sound stage amp (that has no control over)he could save the day with the DI.

You should think of a smaller option (amp) for smaller gigs....

The stage was only 6 feet long at most so lets say it was like 4 feet from the front of the stage., and the pa was about 2 feet in front of the stage, large dance floor for about lets say 250-300 people, then in the back was the area that could fit like anoter 100-150 people. Not exactly a small place but not big either. The stage was very small in relation to the size of the place. It was very wide though.

As far as the smaller ampg goes, I am already looking for a smaller because i am now seeing the "big rig" and being more trouble than its worth sometimes. Im gonna save it for the "Big Gigs" now. I realized at the gig when I when I had my amp on like 1.5 haha.

So far the micro vr with a 2x10 maybex2 seems to be exactly what im looking for. I dont care if the amp isnt extremely loud i care more about the sound, and I though that little bugger was great compared to the other options. After all I can always use the wedges, I try to keep my amp as low as possible and if i need more juice i ask for some in the wedge.

And thanks so much for the input, i have been in a another di thread before but no one made the points like some of you guys have and its starting to change my opinion if only slightly.

so much love,

 

[akaTRENT]

Yeah, but you're in a bit of a different situation than Trent is, Jimmy - IMO, him taking the same stance as yours on this issue will be counterproductive...


- georgestrings

I agree 100 percent. Like i said tail between legs at show, whine on tb and see where im wrong and where im right.

 

[Eric Moesle]

I hire a quality soundman that does our shows EVERY GIG so I don't have these problems. He's just as important as the guitarist, IMO, if not moreso.

Its worth the money spent if you truly care about sounding good out front.

Not spending money on a qualified regular as your sound engineer is like cheaping out and buying a Behringer amp instead of an SVT. You get what you pay for. Some people are on a budget or want to go cheap, and others invest in their sound.

 

[akaTRENT]

Notice how all the guys that play bass and are soundmen are disagreeing with the OP. Maybe since they have been on both sides of the board they might just know something that a bass player doesn't. Georgestrings you hit the nail on the head in your responses in this thread.

And I completely acknowledged that. Once we got down to actually talking haha, It got where he was coming from and completely agree, that is unless someone wants to prove his and the other sound guys points wrong. Which is gonna be hard to do because he convinced me enough to understand the logic.

 

[akaTRENT]

I hire a quality soundman that does our shows EVERY GIG so I don't have these problems. He's just as important as the guitarist, IMO, if not moreso.

Its worth the money spent if you truly care about sounding good out front.

Not spending money on a qualified regular as your sound engineer is like cheaping out and buying a Behringer amp instead of an SVT. You get what you pay for. Some people are on a budget or want to go cheap, and others invest in their sound.

One day I can only hope hard work makes this happen haha.

 

[georgestrings]

I agree 100 percent. Like i said tail between legs at show, whine on tb and see where im wrong and where im right.

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction to me, bud - we're all at different points of the learning curve, that's all...



- georgestrings

 

[akaTRENT]

Quite possibly.

As a somewhat humorous aside (and better perhaps an example of the kind of attitude I see a lot towards bassists)

I was doing a club gig years back where the keyboardist was constantly complaining that the bass was too loud on stage. I kept turning down (to the point where I really couldn't hear myself at all) and he still kept making faces and yelling.

Now I'll grant you that my next act was very unprofessional...

I got so pissed I turned my amp OFF. There was also NO bass in the monitors at all. Still the guy was complaining (he was unaware I had turned off).

Turns out it was the low end off HIS rig coming through the monitors that was making everything thunderous although that thought had never occurred to him and the soundman had made no effort to adjust his EQ to work for the room, the keyboardist didn't want his sound messed with.

Guess who was expected to yield?

Haha

 

[akaTRENT]

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction to me, bud - we're all at different points of the learning curve, that's all...



- georgestrings

Heres really the main thing that got me and maybe you can explain this. He didnt take the di from my svt's pre, he took it direct from my bass.

I understand when they cant take the cab now, but couldnt he at least have taken my amps di, So i could at least have a little bit of svt sound? I should also mention I use my POG2 alot and with out the way the svt pre shapes its tone it can sound a bit funky sometimes.

Because at that point why not just use a berhinger on stage if they arent going to use the amps sound?

But shed some light on me.

 

[WalterBush]

Just out of curiosity, have you considered going wireless, even if only for the purposes of going out in front of the band to hear what the FOH mix sounds like?

It's enlightening. It changed a lot of my thinking about gear in general and bass rigs in particular.

It also helps if you know how to run sound; I do, with years of experience and some national acts under my belt. Between being able to converse on a technical level with the soundguy, and having a wireless so I can stand right where they're standing, hear what they're hearing, and see what they're doing, I get pretty good results out of whatever rig I'm running through. Being conversant with the more common types of boards, being able to ask for SPECIFIC changes regarding EQ and dynamics, etc is an invaluable asset, IMO. Telling the soundman that I'd like 3 dB less at 400 Hz is much, much more likely to get results than, "the bass sounds too boomy."


BTW, I highly recommend having a rig for small gigs and a different one for bigger venues. My 810 doesn't leave my house often anymore, but I can use the same head to drive much smaller cabinets that are easier to carry, sound good, and don't muck up the FOH mix. I also carry my own DI; it simplifies life, and means that on some gigs, I don't carry a bass amp at all. The sound doesn't suffer, because I'm out front making sure it doesn't.

 

[akaTRENT]

Just out of curiosity, have you considered going wireless, even if only for the purposes of going out in front of the band to hear what the FOH mix sounds like?

It's enlightening. It changed a lot of my thinking about gear in general and bass rigs in particular.

It also helps if you know how to run sound; I do, with years of experience and some national acts under my belt. Between being able to converse on a technical level with the soundguy, and having a wireless so I can stand right where they're standing, hear what they're hearing, and see what they're doing, I get pretty good results out of whatever rig I'm running through. Being conversant with the more common types of boards, being able to ask for SPECIFIC changes regarding EQ and dynamics, etc is an invaluable asset, IMO. Telling the soundman that I'd like 3 dB less at 400 Hz is much, much more likely to get results than, "the bass sounds too boomy."


BTW, I highly recommend having a rig for small gigs and a different one for bigger venues. My 810 doesn't leave my house often anymore, but I can use the same head to drive much smaller cabinets that are easier to carry, sound good, and don't muck up the FOH mix. I also carry my own DI; it simplifies life, and means that on some gigs, I don't carry a bass amp at all. The sound doesn't suffer, because I'm out front making sure it doesn't.

I actually do have a wireless, and want to learn how to do exactly what your saying. I have tended not to use it lately though because it makes extra noise.

I know what I boost and cut on my amp, so maybe i should start asking if they could boost me a bit in 800hz area so that some of my tone shaping can come through, if at all.

Any recomendations on a proper di box guys?

 

[modulusman]

Heres really the main thing that got me and maybe you can explain this. He didnt take the di from my svt's pre, he took it direct from my bass.

I understand when they cant take the cab now, but couldnt he at least have taken my amps di, So i could at least have a little bit of svt sound? I should also mention I use my POG2 alot and with out the way the svt pre shapes its tone it can sound a bit funky sometimes.

Because at that point why not just use a berhinger on stage if they arent going to use the amps sound?

But shed some light on me.

By using an external DI if for some reason your bass amp was to quit working you would still be sending a signal to the board.

 

[WalterBush]

Heres really the main thing that got me and maybe you can explain this. He didnt take the di from my svt's pre, he took it direct from my bass.

Direct lines from amps are notorious for being noisy. Soundmen also get nervous that you're going to reach over and crank an EQ knob mid-performance, throwing your signal level off, slamming a compressor, or just plain sounding bad.

Part of this is, you're not just dealing with the soundman's attitude towards you; you're dealing with his memory of bass player after bass player, and the horrible things that happened when he let them have their way. You wheeling in an 810 with an SVT immediately, whether they realize it or not, conjures up the memory of all the bassists before you that cranked the sucker and deafened the room, or messed with the FOH mix, or started arguments, etc.

It's a lot easier for them to just go with what they know works. Remember, they're human. Some of them have decades of bad experiences with bass players to help formulate a gut reaction against SVTs, 810s, post-EQ outputs, pedalboards, etc. Their thoughts on DI vs. Mics may not be logical, but they're going to listen to their feelings of nervousness more than your reassurance that you'll keep the volume down, IME, anyway.

That's the main reason I just show up with a pedalboard pre-wired to my favorite DI/preamp, my wireless, and my bass. If you've got good monitors, I don't even bring a bass amp anymore; I hold on to them for recording, where I have more control. The less options you give a soundguy regarding your rig, the more likely you'll get what YOU want, rather than their idea of what a bass should sound like.

 

[akaTRENT]

By using an external DI if for some reason your bass amp was to quit working you would still be sending a signal to the board.

Oh I know that, but he didnt plug the xlr in so i know he didnt take my pre.
So heres my question what that. Why dont they then do this to the guitars.

I see guitar amps crapping out at shows more than i ever see bass amps...

 

[akaTRENT]

So here's where I am, While I don't necessarily agree with this whole DI buisness, right now its iirelevant to me because half the time I cant change it.

So what can I do to get my sound in the foh even if its not with the amp.
Ill give everyone a start point to work off of.

Lets say I get a micro vr, and a 2x10 for stage. perfect.
Next since I cant get a di box as of current, I get a vt bass pedal, and hook that sucker in my signal path to the instrument line in.

For the big gigs I could rock an audix d6 on my 8x10,

at all gigs i could ask the sound guy for a roll off at about 50 hz to kill the nasty sub bass, a big boost at around 800hz and another slight boost at 4khz for some string attack. Any thoughts on that one? after all that basically is my tone, think like green day or blink 182 with a little extra grit.