dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[georgestrings]

Oh I know that, but he didnt plug the xlr in so i know he didnt take my pre.
So heres my question what that. Why dont they then do this to the guitars.

I see guitar amps crapping out at shows more than i ever see bass amps...

modulusman gave the same answer I did on this awhile ago...

Are you sure he didn't run the XLR out from the DI box into anything??? Odds are, he sent that back to the board... Another reason for soundguys to use a DI between the bass and the amp - particularly when dealing with younger, *probably* less experienced musicians - is that when effects are used, they often cause wild level swings that can cause damage to the PA... Also, it keeps "knob twiddlers" from causing them grief, as well...

Believe me, most sound guys are more interested in keeping their PA intact than they are accurately translating "your sound" through their PA - and IMO, that's not an invalid position for them to take, more often than not...


The reasons why that doesn't happen with guitars is:

A - A decent soundguy can get a good bass sound that way, but guitar just doesn't work that way...

B - It's next to impossible for a guitar rig to damage a PA - not so with a bass rig...

C - A bassist's "backup rig" can consist of a DI box, whereas a guitarist will need another amp, or an multi-effects unit at the very least for backup - so, simply DI'ing them doesn't accomplish much...



- georgestrings

 

[akaTRENT]

modulusman gave the same answer I did on this awhile ago...

Are you sure he didn't run the XLR out from the DI box into anything??? Odds are, he sent that back to the board...

A - A decent soundguy can get a good bass sound that way, but guitar just doesn't work that way...

C - A bassist's "backup rig" can consist of a DI box, whereas a guitarist will need another amp, or an multi-effects unit at the very least for backup - so, simply DI'ing them doesn't accomplish much...



- georgestrings

Yeah Heres my weird thing, I use my effects constantly, A delay, the pog, and a bass muff.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Having done quite a bit sound in the past I agree 100% with the soundmen/bassplayers in this thread. As I did in the previous mic vs Di thread. And the one before that. And the..., You get the point? .

So what can I do to get my sound in the foh even if its not with the amp.
Ill give everyone a start point to work off of.

SVTDI?

I haven't used mine as much that I thought when I bought it a year ago, as the "big" gigs didn't happen.

Once I used it through the board and into a spare amp feeding my rig as the low voltage caused my tube amp to blow the HT fuses (inside the amp obviously ).

The only problem I have with active DI's is that they require either a power supply (SVTDI) or batteries/phantom power. Just another thing to go wrong.

A quality passive DI between the bass and the amp/pedalboard will probably leave You as the only person audible if something drastic happens. Not that it matters that much at that point, but at least everyone else is dead quiet and You can show off any fancy licks that you know. Just to keep the people entertained, not as a sign of vanity .

Regards
Sam

 

[Febs]

And heres the part of the story i forgot to mention! I agree with everything you just said and totally understand that sometimes "my mix" will sound like garbage foh. And heres the kicker, I asked him if he could blend my signals like your saying, he said yeah no problem.

Given the fact that you had a rig that by your own admission was overkill for a small room, he undoubtedly did blend "your sound" with the DI. It is entirely possible that he knew that your rig would carry the room anyway and that it would not be necessary to mic your cabinet to get the sound of the cabinet to the house. For all you know, he may have had the DI channel muted the entire show.

 

[akaTRENT]

Given the fact that you had a rig that by your own admission was overkill for a small room, he undoubtedly did blend "your sound" with the DI. It is entirely possible that he knew that your rig would carry the room anyway and that it would not be necessary to mic your cabinet to get the sound of the cabinet to the house. For all you know, he may have had the DI channel muted the entire show.

Yeah, there was now ay to know though. place just opened like 2 weeks ago. no pictures of it. anyways, it wasnt exactly small so i dunno if my amp was overkill or not. like i said it was probably a around a 500 cap, the size of most places that only do shows were i would need the svt big boy. it was just setup weird..

but yeah i def need a smaller amp for these questionable gigs.

 

[JackANSI]

Don't know if anyone covered this yet, but did you ask the sound guy why he wanted a DI only? Finding out the reasoning behind someone's actions is really critical to discovering a way to work with them on these issues. Unless you're in a position to hire and fire your sound people, you need to work with your sound guy, not against, especially when you know you'll be having to work with them again. (The owners in some clubs around here depend on the sound guy's assessment of a band, talent, and draw to determine who to keep booking)

Don't take this as I'm against your position, I'm not. Even though I'm a supporter of "DI first, ask questions later". In rare cases, a DI isn't the best choice.



If you didn't hire the soundguy or he's a house sound guy: Just find out why and make him understand why that reason doesn't apply to you. He wants everything to sound good too. Many deal with all kinds of musicians from local on up and have a point of view similar to: "Its not my job to stroke anyone's ego or put up with prima donna attitudes". He'll shut you out in a heart beat and just do it his way anyway. If it means you look at him all pissed off, so be it, at least you're not bouncing off 'his' limiters all night long.

His attitude came about after getting screwed with many times or having his sometimes valuable opinion about whats going to work in 'his' room, chucked out in favor of some bonehead who had to have it his way and made him look/sound bad (in his eyes anyway). Unless you make it clear that you're willing to work with him and that it is a two way street you're not going to get anywhere. It is 'his' room, really, you're just a guest.

If you hire the soundguy: Hopefully you're smart and hire someone you get along personally with. But even when you don't get along, he is being paid to put up with you and your demands. If you get to be a pain in his ass, he'll jack the price up next time and make it worth his while to work with you. If you don't like him, don't hire him again. Finding the right and/or a good soundguy isn't going to be cheap cause everyone will want him to run sound.

 

[mikeswals]

Aw man this is a real pet peeve of mine. To me it seems many soundman don't realize todays original music has more and more bassists driving unique or distinct tones, or like I do-use active and passive instruments along with unique tones. But those same soundguys dial everyone the same Adam Clayton sound when they're really trying to get Rage or Muse like sounds.
Some of us have been playing bar bands 101 long enough to know how to eq and keep stage volume down for the house. Usually I'm met with either mic'ing the cab-which I love, or using the post-out which I can still do and be satisfied with 'my' sound. Every once in a while I'm met with a soundman who will deal nothing more than a DI straight off the bass, to which I'll comment not to plug me in...my amp is capable of filling the club on it's own. Also I always bring passive and an active basses...my rigs channels are compensated for the volume difference, but if DI'd straight from the bass nothing worse than switching instruments to find a soundguy out for a smoke.

I hire a quality soundman that does our shows EVERY GIG so I don't have these problems. He's just as important as the guitarist, IMO, if not moreso.

Its worth the money spent if you truly care about sounding good out front.

Not spending money on a qualified regular as your sound engineer is like cheaping out and buying a Behringer amp instead of an SVT. You get what you pay for. Some people are on a budget or want to go cheap, and others invest in their sound.

If you own your own PA that your soundguy mainly works with, and play 5 hour nighters, then it would be fine.
For many of us original bands who only play a 45min to 1hr set, doesn't own the PA, and the hired sound guy is unfamiliar with the various house PA's and the rooms, it doesn't make sense. We've tried it as well as witnessed it with other bands before, and a hired soundguy unfamiliar with the house PA and room can sound just as odd as a house soundman dialing in his ideal tones.

 

[fokof]

Eh Trent , since you look like you're considering to maybe change your amp/setup , I can give you an advice ;
Since you look for a gritty , very colored sound (you like SVT/810), try to obtain that type of tone or something similar from preamp/pedals/ whatever and get a good , very flat bass amp/monitor. This way you'll always have your tone in whatever venue , monitors, PA you'll play. You would even be able to have your tone in IEM !

Yes I know that nothing sounds like SVT 8/10 , nothing emulates the coupling FX of 8X10" speakers ...... I know all that.

There are a couple of products out there that can fill that void , I'M sure.

 

[akaTRENT]

Eh Trent , since you look like you're considering to maybe change your amp/setup , I can give you an advice ;
Since you look for a gritty , very colored sound (you like SVT/810), try to obtain that type of tone or something similar from preamp/pedals/ whatever and get a good , very flat bass amp/monitor. This way you'll always have your tone in whatever venue , monitors, PA you'll play. You would even be able to have your tone in IEM !

Yes I know that nothing sounds like SVT 8/10 , nothing emulates the coupling FX of 8X10" speakers ...... I know all that.

There are a couple of products out there that can fill that void , I'M sure.

Not really replace more like add on option.

 

[Marcus Willett]

many soundman don't realize todays original music has more and more bassists driving unique or distinct tones, or like I do-use active and passive instruments along with unique tones. But those same soundguys dial everyone the same Adam Clayton sound when they're really trying to get Rage or Muse like sounds.

This is an excellent point and IMO really the heart of the matter moreso than DI vs. Mic type stuff.

A soundman like any human being is going to come to the table with certain preferences and preconceived ideas about how things should be. This is of course natural and we all do it.

The critical factor though is his role in the scheme of things. If a bandleader hires me to play bass for a gig and hands me a chart, and says "These are the changes I want you to play; they sound the way I want them to."; it is not my position to decide "Well, I'm going to change some of them because I have some that will sound better even though you think yours are best."

In a similar fashion, it is not the function of a soundman to decide what I or the band should sound like. It is not his function to superimpose his correct/standard bass tone over me.

I've been in many situations where I dealt with a soundman that only loved metal and his idea of how the bass (any bass) should sound is that typical mid-scooped clackity clack Fiedly junk (no offense if you dig him/it but to me it's pure dogsh*t). I'm doing 70's fingerstyle funk and no one can hear the bassline cause it's nothing but boom and clack. Soundman digs it tho.

So this kinda guy goes and sets up that kinda tone, because in his mind it sounds "bitchin". And maybe to him it does, but so what? That's not his call. His job is to take the sound of the band onstage and make it work in the house, period. He is not the producer, he is a craftsman being hired to perform a service as instructed, just like me.

Now sure, sometimes the guy hiring me will ask for input and I'll give it. Just like I'll ask a soundman's input and listen to what he thinks, but he does not have the final say on my tone...I do.

 

[fokof]

In a similar fashion, it is not the function of a soundman to decide what I or the band should sound like.

And it's not the band's bass player to decide wich tool the soundman should use.

Hi Marcus!

And check the contracts next time , around here , it's often specified in the contract that all the sound , the equipement that is used ,is the responsibility of the "show room" (sorry I don't know the right word in english). That gives the last word to the soundman. Sorry.
If your band is the producer of the show ($$$$$) then , it can be your call , if your producer agrees with you.
I think it's a very selfish attitude to think like that , but he , that's IMHO IME etc....

Like other said , hire your soundman and those things are less likely to happen.

 

[Marcus Willett]

And it's not the band's bass player to decide wich tool the soundman should use.

Never said it was.

 

[akaTRENT]

Never said it was.

haha touche.

 

[fokof]

Never said it was.

Gotta point.
I had a discussion on that subject with you a couple of months ago and I know your point of view.
I know you're a Mic type/guy/bass player.......
I kinna assumed you meant that.....

 

[BassikLee]

After the debacle that the last thread I dared offer my opinion on turned into, I will attempt to tread lightly....

While this started on an interesting note, I think some more valid points than the OP's have been made. No disrespect to the OP intended. I am all but sure you carried just fine in the house with your SVT in a small club.

Marcus and I sort of went to school together. I say sort of, because he was there to learn, and I just kind of flaked off. That said, we did play a bit of bass together, so I think I know the tone he is talking about. When I am mixing a band, I try my BEST not to impose MY bass sound on the guy who is playing. I try to listen to what he is doing, and make it work for the audience. This is where some of you guys start to get upset. Sometimes, what you hear bouncing around the room is not what it sounds like out front. I am of the opinion that the bass player, on stage, is in about the worst position to have an opinion about what he sounds like in the house. I will mic a cab, or take a DI off the bass amp, in addition to the DI off the bass. To those who have never actually done it, there is a HUGE difference between what a mic on a speaker hears, and what the guy playing the bass hears. He hears all the drivers in a multi driver cab, comb filtering, adding AND subtracting to/from each other. He hears the cab's resonance, the stage resonance, all of that. And, guess what, move the mic as little as a half an inch, or change the angle, and the mic signal is ENTIRELY different once again.

There are LOTS of sound guys out there who have nary a clue. I would like to think I have at least some semblance of a clue.

Not sure my point was very clear at all. Kinda tired....

 

[Gearhead17]

I am right in your alley Trent - not many soundmen give a damn about my bass tone and won't do much more than a DI signal. Granted they don't complain if I give them a pre/post signal or mix distortion in it - I only had one guy who did.

You had asked a few questions about Direct connecting guitars. My guitarist had his rig die during the show and they ran a direct signal off of his pedal board. His sound was incredibly clean even with the distortion on. It was like Anti-guitar distortion. Guitar rigs are miked because the tubes PLUS the guitar cabinet are responsible for that distorted tone. PA speakers are not designed to do what Celestions do all the time.

I know what's coming...what about your rig and the resulting tone? Doesn't that even matter? I think the biggest key in bass tones are the 400hz-4khz range out of bass cabs. PA cabs don't make midrange sound nice and punchy like a bass cab/with amp would. Go to Guitar Center and plug your bass into a DI box and straight into their PA system/show room. Listen to what your bass sounds like - I did it myself and it was eye opening.

I regularly played a venue that can hold nearly 1500 people - big room & large PA. The soundman was fair to me when I asked him to mic my rig and use a direct box. (He did this for the first show and told me that my distorted tone through the mic sounded incredible). He explained a little tid bit after the show that might shed some light on the mic vs. DI situation:

In big rooms that are relatively not filled with people, there are not a lot of bodies in the room to absorb soundwaves. Stage sound tends to bleed out and bounce everywhere in emptier rooms - not much to stop it from moving. The soundman relies a little bit more on the stage sound to work with the PA system. In big rooms with more people overall, there are more bodies hanging around and they absorb more of the stage noise especially when they hover around the front of the stage. This causes the soundman to rely more on the PA and not worry so much about stage volume.

I usually gave the soundman my signal straight off the bass with distortion mixed in (mostly clean tones though) and he used that signal for the PA. He then asked me to TURN UP my rig to fill the room somewhat. He put everything in phase and some other "magic" to make my rig work with the PA system. I had many people tell me they heard me all night long and I sounded really good. Since Thursday's are terrible around here for people to come in, this is how I ran sound every night. This soundman had told me if the house was packed, he would have asked for the direct signal and gladly had used my provided Audix D4 mic and blended the signals.

In your situation TRENT, I am going to guess the 810 and SVT you used bled a lot into the room - more so than you think. Not based on your volume, but mainly on the size of that 810 coupled with a room that had few people (possibly-I don't know what your crowd size was). Some rooms are just crazy acousticly and no matter what you do, it's going to be trouble. I feel for you dude.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I know you're a Mic type/guy/bass player.......
I kinna assumed you meant that.....

You know what they say happens when you assume.

I'm not necessarily inclined to one method or the other. I fully understand that it's a difficult beast to tame and that every situation/room is unique and must be approached in that way. The only thing I demand of a soundman is the same amount of consideration and time/effort that he would give a guitarist without a second thought. I've had experiences with soundmen where I simply say "Come up on stage and hear my rig. THAT is my sound; get THAT in the house and make whatever adjustments are needed to make THAT sound work in the house." It may be a mic, it may be a DI, it may be both. The tools don't concern me...the results and the respect do.

When I am mixing a band, I try my BEST not to impose MY bass sound on the guy who is playing. I try to listen to what he is doing, and make it work for the audience.

Well put Lee. We've all got a job to do in that situation and if we work together everyone can win. It's not about a specific tool or method but about a specific goal.

 

[Gearhead17]

There was a comment about "focusing on your playing" and forgetting about the FOH tone. That rings true in my book.

I would love to get my direct tone of the bass sent to the sound man and have them use my Audix D4 to capture my 4 PRO and Mesa Cab sound. Since my coverband was picked up by an EXCELLENT booking agency, we now have a Stage plot in which I designated that my tone will be hooked up my way.

From a few years of playing, I have learned this:

1. Drunk people don't give a crap about your tone.

2. Making sure you hit notes with similar consistency makes soundmen happy because they don't have to put your tone through a compressor channel.

3. Not boosting your stage volume to obscene levels and/or adjusting your tone evey song makes them happy too.

3a. Adjusting once or twice to hear yourself better is not a big deal.

4. Drunks get a kick when it is just you playing, as long as they hear you, they seem to enjoy it.

5. Being heard is the main key - even if your tone is lousy sounding, at least people can hear what the heck you are doing up there.

6. Until you are the headlining act, very popular or some other type of leverage, you can't always get what you want.


Lastly, a soundman who lies to your face, uggghhh that's terrible. But let me ask you this Trent, the above explanation I gave - would you have felt better if he had told you that?

 

[JimmyM]

And it's not the band's bass player to decide wich tool the soundman should use.

He is perfectly free to run any board or cabs he wants, but the delivery system is mine. Last time we had this argument, it was a mic. I'm now back on a DI for the most part, but I bring my own. I pretty much have to since I run a speaker DI on an SVT for most gigs now. I've decided I like the speaker DI sound enough to not worry about the mic anymore, but I'm using my own DI and that's that.

 

[sonic assassin]

what always gets to me about those who defend the DI is that ive never had a sound guy tell me to play and THEN decide what he wants to run. it was always "heres the mic we always use" or "heres the DI we always use". i run very little low end on my bass signal. all about the high mid grind and a decent bottom end (focused more at 150-300hz). and they dont neglect to mic my cab because its too bassy, they do so because they are lazy or dont know better.