Demeter Minnie 800D Question

[bucephylus]

Using my Magellan 800 or my Mesa D-800 as a power amp only for my Demeter VTBP201 preamp sounds very quick and articulate...and great

Using same preamp into a heavy as hell 20 year old Yorkville AP1200...sound is immediately more girthy and rich sounding/ feeling....and, Oh my!

As @agedhorse has posted elsewhere, there are SOME of the older power amp topologies which do add girth; Crest CA9 being another example.

The Magellan and Mesa both use the ICE 700ACS, which has a very neutral output character, IME. The Minnie uses the ICE 250ASX, which is an earlier design, but somewhat related. To my ears, the 250ASX has a bit of more "girth" into a 4 ohm cab; at least compared to my Berg B|Amp (also the 700ACS); but the sacrifice is that the 250ASX is a bit less versatile, in terms of load impedance.

So, you are correct that some of the older "iron" can produce more intrinsic heft. Whether or not that can be compensated with volume knobs and EQ isn't so clear to me yet.

 

[murphy]

and the SWR stereo 800 had that same effect on me....Wish I hadn't sold it last year

 

[Chef]

But if I send my favorite preamp into the effects return of say a Mesa 800D (for example) isn't that the same as using a separate power amp?

yessir

 

[Doner Designs]

As @agedhorse has posted elsewhere, there are SOME of the older power amp topologies which do add girth; Crest CA9 being another example.

The Magellan and Mesa both use the ICE 700 ACS, which has a very neutral output character, IME. The Minnie uses the ICE 250ASX, which is an earlier design, but somewhat related. To my ears, the 250ASX has a bit of more"girth" into a 4 ohms cab; at least compared to my Berg B|Amp (also the 700ACS); but the sacrifice is that the 250ASX is a bit less versatile, in terms of load impedance.

So, you are correct that some of the older "iron" can produce more intrinsic heft. Whether or not that can be compensated with volume knobs and EQ isn't so clear to me yet.

Thanks; that is helpful to my understanding of pros/cons and why some integrated micro amps are able to operate under 4 ohms and others not.

 

[Doner Designs]

I'd still put the Demmie a notch or two up from your typical "500 Watt" micro in that regard.

Is that all or partly because it's 800 watts (vs 500) or are you referring to equal watts into an 8 ohm load (which I think is 500-ish).

 

[MarkA]

Is that all or partly because it's 800 watts (vs 500) or are you referring to equal watts into an 8 ohm load (which I think is 500-ish).

Been awhile since I said that -- I had to refer to what I said before to know which "regard" I was talking about! (Full quote below.)

Pretty sure it's an ICE 250ASX2, a la the GK MB800, TH500, and Puma 900. That's not to say that the manner of implementing the module into their respective designs wouldn't differ.

I had a Demeter HBP-1 800D, which, I believe, uses the same 250 ASX2 as the Minnie. I would expect the performance to be similar, but I could be wrong. I used that amp as a standalone, as a sometimes-power-amp (via the effects return) for Monique, and as a preamp in front of a Crest Pro Lite 2.0. It had more kick and held together significantly better at high volume into an 8 Ohm load than my Markbass F500 did -- cruised where the F500 started to compress, but that amp doesn't use an ICE module. (The Demmie also tested well, if I recall correctly, when Bass Gear magazine put it on the bench. Maybe @tombowlus can offer some insight?) I did briefly own a Tone Hammer 500 and got the impression that the Demmie had more on tap than the TH did (definitely had a tighter low-end response), but, while I played it out a few times, I never pushed the Tone Hammer that hard, so I can't say for sure how they'd compare at their limits. A lot of the difference I perceived would, I imagine, have to do with the amps' different front ends.

I briefly tried the HBP through the 1000 ASP based amp that JGR built that Mike Arnopol's got -- that was awhile back; didn't play it on a gig or anything, but cranked it pretty loud outside. Felt like the low-end clarity and articulation were better -- and the sound smoother overall -- through that amp than through the Demmie's internal power, but I'd still put the Demmie a notch or two up from your typical "500 Watt" micro in that regard.

Sorry I can't offer a more direct comparison.

...Okay, so, basically, I said that I think the Demeter Minnie 800D would be a notch or two up from your typical 500 Watt @ 4 Ohms micro (that's what I mean by "500 Watt micro") in terms of low-end clarity and articulation, but that I felt the 1000ASP based amp that I played through (the one Mike Arnopol had that JGR built) was a notch or two up from that.

You're wondering, if I read you right, if that's simply due to the difference in wattage or to something else. I've wondered the same thing myself, and not just in reference to the Demmie. I asked @JGR about it once. I believe it went something like...

Q: If you have a 500 Watt amp and a 1000 Watt amp, both operating well within their limits on peaks and continuously, will you notice a difference (will one feel more solid, clear, articulate than another) at equal volume?

A: Assuming that everything else is equal, no, there shouldn't be a perceptible difference. However, everything else is almost never equal...

I can't speak for Jonathan, but that's how I recall it. With integrated amps (Pumas, Tonehammers, MB800s, etc.) there will be differences in the front end, probably differences in power management schemes, etc., that will impact dynamics and feel. There might be other differences of which I'm unaware. With different poweramps, voltage sensitivity and input impedance can affect the feel, along with damping factor and (again) other factors of which I am likely unaware. If you listen to the designers of higher end amps, whether point-to-point or using circuit boards, even component layout can have an effect.

All that partially grasped theory aside, Wattage ratings aside, I felt that the power section in my HBP1-800D outperformed that of any of the little "500 Watt" (@ 4 Ohms) micros that I've owned, whether run with the HBP or something else as the front end. I thought the 1000 ASP amp performed better with the HBP front end than did its own internal power section, at all volumes. In this case, perceived increases in performance happen to have coincided with increased wattage, but that doesn't mean that more juice is necessarily the cause -- at least not the sole cause.

Hope that helps.