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DI = mud
- Thread starter Floyd Eye
- Start date
Absolutely. Perhaps in a pinch (lack of board channels) if your amplifier has a DI out that is a post-EQ signal, you might get there too.
So, again, how did you know the sound was muddy? Were you standing out FOH or was this just your perception from the stage?
My people that were out in front told me. I could barely hear myself on stage. No my people aren't "sound guys", but they know mud when they hear it and they certainly know the difference between what I sound like with no PA and what I sound like with it.
Here's another vote for it not being a D.I. problem.
In the video where you played Sober, it seemed almost like a compressor kicked in with the singer and buried you below the vocal. It's that or the sound man pulled you down in the mix and you never went back up. You didn't turn to mud, though. Your level dropped in the mains. When there is no singing I hear you. I just don't hear you well.
I wish I had $20.00 for every show I've been to where the bass was actually mud. I just saw Michael McDonald and Boz Scaggs at DTE Energy Music Theater. The bass was nothing but junk low end all night, and I had great seats.
In the video where you played Sober, it seemed almost like a compressor kicked in with the singer and buried you below the vocal. It's that or the sound man pulled you down in the mix and you never went back up. You didn't turn to mud, though. Your level dropped in the mains. When there is no singing I hear you. I just don't hear you well.
I wish I had $20.00 for every show I've been to where the bass was actually mud. I just saw Michael McDonald and Boz Scaggs at DTE Energy Music Theater. The bass was nothing but junk low end all night, and I had great seats.
All things being equal, the sound one hears in a PA is coloured most by the speakers, not the mixer or the signals that go into it. IME, 80 - 90% of shows I see which are not supported by top level pro-touring PA rigs, are invariably supported by bad or inadequate PA speakers.
Calling Mr Fitzmaurice.........
Calling Mr Fitzmaurice.........
Why are people giving Floyd a hard time over not liking the DI? I do agree that it's a soundman problem more than a DI problem, but if the guy likes the sound of his rig mic'ed, he should get it mic'ed. I only mic my rigs anymore and I like it a LOT better. I tried to like DI's but I don't and I only use them when I go on the road and my SVT/810 rental rig turns into some piece of crap the promoter's son owns. And I own a Sansamp and I prefer not to use its DI either.
And I also agree with Johnny A, and I get a little irritated with soundmen who complain you're too loud in the house and they can't put you in the PA. Does it sound good anyway? OK, then leave it out of the PA and go about your business. My rig sure sounds great in the house when we can't run it through the PA. I like running it in the PA but I'm not in a really loud band. Floyd and Johnny are. Don't turn up to the point it gets you fired, but I never understood those "everything must be in the PA or it'll suck" types. Geez, just pull it and quit whining!
And I also agree with Johnny A, and I get a little irritated with soundmen who complain you're too loud in the house and they can't put you in the PA. Does it sound good anyway? OK, then leave it out of the PA and go about your business. My rig sure sounds great in the house when we can't run it through the PA. I like running it in the PA but I'm not in a really loud band. Floyd and Johnny are. Don't turn up to the point it gets you fired, but I never understood those "everything must be in the PA or it'll suck" types. Geez, just pull it and quit whining!
In my experience sound men see the bass as a quick win with DI. They can plug you in and have your sound set in 2 minutes. This doesn't mean it's a good sound or to your taste. It probably won't sound like you. I have set up many times and the sound man will pull my cable out of the amp and plug in into the DI box without talking to me. They then run a cable from the DI box into my amp. My trace elliot has three DI ports on the back, two for stereo post eq and one pre eq. They would never accept the post eq signal. And this is without hearing my sound so how would they know whether it's good or not?
It seems like;
1. they don't trust bass players to be able to set a good sound.
2. they consider the bass to be an inferior instrument they don't want to waste time on.
Maybe I just have a bass player chip on my shoulder but I have been gigging 25 years and I'm not short on experience.
It seems like;
1. they don't trust bass players to be able to set a good sound.
2. they consider the bass to be an inferior instrument they don't want to waste time on.
Maybe I just have a bass player chip on my shoulder but I have been gigging 25 years and I'm not short on experience.
Because IIRC he has only played a total of 2 shows with hired sound. He hasn't had enough experience to make such a blanket statement.
So I should play lots more shows with a DI, even though I was unhappy with it the first 2 times? You know, just to make sure I hate it?
You'd think you people invented the DI as much offense as has been taken in this thread to me not liking it. I probably should have titled the thread, " DI = Mud?
FWIW, I am going into the club very early next Friday and work with the club owner to come up with a sound I am happy with. My rig is loud enough to do like Jimmy says and just leave me out of the PA if necessary.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,066
- 5
- 221,114
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Indeed, there are some interesting perspectives in this thread as well as some patently incorrect information.
1. Most (as in 99.9%) of DI's are ment to drive a mic preamp. The act of impedance transformation of a passive DI puts the output at ~mic level and the preamp is required to bring it back up. Any acti8ve DI thyat does not use batteries MUST use the balanced mic input in order to get phantom power to operate. I suspect that either the OP misunderstood what the A&H tech said or possible he got a sales/marketing guy pretending he was a tech and showing his lack of technical prowess.
2. DI's are not generally the cause of muddy sound in the PA. In fact, they almost never are. The vast majority of pro level touring acts successfully use DI's every night and achieve outstanding results. This is the backround I come from, and the BE's I work with don't have this problem, and I don't either when I have to mix. In fact, most bass players I work with are MORE than happy with their bass tone through the PA. (I still work about 50 shows a year to stay current with the pro level sound and feel, though I am coming up on 30 years doing this and it's not as easy as it once was)
3. I suggest that the OP slow down and stop blaming things that may not be true in his specific situation (and are definately untrue in the pro world) and systematicly troubleshoot to try to identify what the real cause is. Enlisting the help of a real pro may in this situation be money well spent too.
4. Be sure there's nothing hidden in the preamp that might be affecting the output to the DI, in some of the DSP based preamps, there are all kinds of potential gottchas.
Hope this helps.
Concerning the difference between the mic and line in on boards, check the signal flow diagram of your particular board. I see a lot of non-pro boards that pad the line in input back down to mic level before going into a common preamp. In other words, both inputs go through the same signal chain. On some, boards the line in does skip an amplifier that the mic in goes through.
As an example, I just checked the Allen & Heath ZED 24 and its line in does go through one less amp then the mic in. The Mackie VLZ3 4-Bus series uses -15 dB attenuation on the line in. The mic in has a switchable -20 dB pad, so, really, it could be used as either a mic or line in.
- John
As an example, I just checked the Allen & Heath ZED 24 and its line in does go through one less amp then the mic in. The Mackie VLZ3 4-Bus series uses -15 dB attenuation on the line in. The mic in has a switchable -20 dB pad, so, really, it could be used as either a mic or line in.
- John
Whatever if you ever play a show with a PA that isn't total junk and with a soundman that has a clue you may change your opinion. Of course it would help if you owned a bass rig that was actually working properly.
I think the idea is to get the sound as even as one can, in the venue. Too much bass coming off the stage doesn't allow that to happen.
You should keep experimenting with a DI and see what happens - you need a good sound man to show and help you out with your signals. DI's work great in a live situation, so do mics. Having a competent sound man is the biggest key here.
Great idea on working with the Club Owner to get a good bass tone live. I wish I had more opportunities to do that. Good luck.
Was thinking the same thing - any DI box I've ever ran thru as a bassist, or used as a soundman has always gone thru an XLR(mic preamp) via the stage snake...
In fact, I'll be running that way tonight, and tomorrow night, too - only it'll be a post-EQ send from my amp's DI... although I've also run a JDI or Countryman many, many times that way without any troubles - with boards by A&H, Soundcraft, etc...
- georgestrings
Can't argue with this either. As bad as that sucks.
Technically though my rig is almost working properly. The only thing that is out is the preamp on the Carvin, which makes it pretty much like just running a Sansamp and a power amp. It definitely isn't the rig I want, but it does the job for now, until I can afford an SVT and an 8x10.
Like I said, I'm going to work it out with the soundguy. The first 2 gigs happened fast. We weren't the only bands on the bill and we really didn't have a chance to figure anything out. This guy wants us to sound good because his bar is focused on live music and he has heard good things around town about us and we are pretty much the only band around here not playing classic rock or southern rock. Anyway, if this guy can make me sound good, I'll be happy, DI or not.
