DI = mud

[staindbass]

Why does it sound right when I am not hooked into a sound system? Wouldn't a mic pretty much sound like my rig? When we play the bars my rig sounds awesome, when a soundguy hooks into me it sounds like crap. Where DOES the problem lie?

if it sounds thinner onstage once to pa comes on, its out of phase where you are standing with the pa. flip the phase switch on the mixing board. it may just be the pa or the guy running it if it sounds like mud. thats why its good to have a huge amp so the audience hears the sound you want them to hear, instead of the pa.

 

[TL5]

Were you standing out in the crowd to hear that the bass was muddy? Or was this just your perception from standing on stage?

I was ready to ask the same thing.

If you're on stage, hearing the PA from the back side will sound muddy even if it's crystal clear out front.

 

[Vinny D]

thats why its good to have a huge amp so the audience hears the sound you want them to hear, instead of the pa.

Yeah thats always the best thing to do in a bar/club situation

 

[Silas Stingy]

When you are playing through a decent sized P.A system and at the mercy of a soundman then you have to trust them with the outfront and deal with the on stage yourself. Don't worry about what he is up to as you can rarely change it.

You will probably be getting plenty of low end firing back at you from the P.A system, use your amp and cab purely for monitoring so cut out the lows. An 18" will really muddy up the onstage by working against the P.As subs so save that for non P.A support gigs.

Set your amp pointing across the stage into your ear (in my experience soundmen love this, the rest of the band will think you have lost it) and get out of the monitors unless there is something particularly nice coming from them. An 810 is great but again watch the lows, this is a whole different ball game with the P.A in the mix.

 

[MNAirHead]

I wouldnt trust the answers here.... Heck we dont know how he sound guy set it up or what he was using.

Monitors are notoriously different than mains... Id first start mid room then work outward, what does it sound like out there? did the sound guy use headphones to mix the monitors?


Pro sound is not the same as bedroom sound... Many times when starting out it is important to learn spectrum slotting and how bass fits in the mix... Its possible the sound guy mixed you right and you need to listen from band persective,,,

if this is one of the jive four bands in one night festival mixes,,,,,, just take what you can get,,, in 45 minutes it's over,,, no need sound checking an hour for a brief set

 

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

I have been struggling with the DI mud situation myself and after fixing some poorley engineered speakers I sat down with the PA hooked up in my garage going through every DI I have to find one that I liked.(not very helpful I know).
Here is something that I did learn and that is I was told by a tech at Allen & Heath that the DI was not meant to be plugged in to the Mic Preamps on the board evidentaly it is redundant,instead use the line in,so I guess you would go from XLR (DI) to 1/4 (TRS) into the input on the board.
I have used the 1/4 out on the back of the amp before directly into the 1/4 input on the board and it sound much more like "my sound" and much less filtered.
I think that some DI's are very filtered to give you a dead quiet line for studio use and without a $1500 Avalon tube preamp to bring them back to life you get squashed filtered mud sound.
I am happy with my TH500 DI (XLR to XLR mic input) and my Trace Elliot V-Type DI but it is a little noisey.
my .02

 

[Hugh9191]

If your finding it sounds muddy on stage try dropping off loads of lows on your amp. You'll be hearing the bass from the subs which from where you are standing (behind the mains) is going to sound muddy.

If you drop the lows in your amp you might find the lows from the sub and the mid/highs from your cab compliment each other on stage.

The bass in the first clip you posted sounds good to me (aside from the camera tone), I didn't think it sounded muddy.

The second clip sounds like it is lacking in mids which is why you got lost in the mix. This could be due to the eq on the desk, the FOH or the sansamp stripping mids.

Also if you have an amp on stage you shouldn't have any bass in the monitors.

 

[Dave W]

Here is something that I did learn and that is I was told by a tech at Allen & Heath that the DI was not meant to be plugged in to the Mic Preamps on the board evidentaly it is redundant,instead use the line in,so I guess you would go from XLR (DI) to 1/4 (TRS) into the input on the board.

Doesn't that serve the same purpose on most boards? Both are balanced inputs, both are line level, and both go through the preamp. The only difference on both of my boards are the mic input is XLR and the line input is 1/4"

Lets say that it was different, and plugging in to the line input bypassed the preamp, how would you EQ it?

 

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

I have not sat down with the board since I talked to the tech at A&H but what he said leads me to believe that the 1/4 input bypasses the mic preamp unless he was talking about another input further down the chain but then you would loose your EQ ability.
You raise a valid question, I thought that the line in on each channel still goes thru the EQ which would also be the preamp.
Huh maybe someone else has heard of this DI straight to line input theory?
It would be interesting to try it out by ear and see if there is noticeable difference.
I originally called A&H to ask them how to turn off the phantom power to a specific channel (there is a wire that you cut inside) so that I would not damage my older non phantom protected DI's and the tech told me that I shouldnt even be plugging into the XLR.
So does phantom power only travel through the XLR or can it go through the 1/4 TRS also??

Doesn't that serve the same purpose on most boards? Both are balanced inputs, both are line level, and both go through the preamp. The only difference on both of my boards are the mic input is XLR and the line input is 1/4"

Lets say that it was different, and plugging in to the line input bypassed the preamp, how would you EQ it?

 

[bongomania]

I have never, ever heard it suggested before that a DI shouldn't go to a mic input. I wonder if maybe you misunderstood what he was saying... Like perhaps he was saying you could get a lower noise floor by taking the mic pre out of the chain. But that would only apply to certain cases, because not all mixers have balanced 1/4" inputs.

In most cases I've personally seen where they DO have balanced 1/4" jacks, those jacks connected to the mic pre!

He may have been saying something specific to A&H mixers.

 

[Febs]

if it sounds thinner onstage once to pa comes on, its out of phase where you are standing with the pa. flip the phase switch on the mixing board. it may just be the pa or the guy running it if it sounds like mud. thats why its good to have a huge amp so the audience hears the sound you want them to hear, instead of the pa.

I guess that's right, if "the sound you want them to hear" is bass. I'd prefer to have the audience hear a good, cohesive mix.

 

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

He definentaly sounded young and assured me that most mixers are like that and his way was the proper way to run a line in,it does make sense that you would not want to run the signal through another preamp but it goes against what everyone does.
I wonder what AgedHorse has to say at Genz Benz about this?

I have never, ever heard it suggested before that a DI shouldn't go to a mic input. I wonder if maybe you misunderstood what he was saying... Like perhaps he was saying you could get a lower noise floor by taking the mic pre out of the chain. But that would only apply to certain cases, because not all mixers have balanced 1/4" inputs.

In most cases I've personally seen where they DO have balanced 1/4" jacks, those jacks connected to the mic pre!

He may have been saying something specific to A&H mixers.

 

[wateroftyne]

Based on experiences at my own gigs, and watching other bands, I've come to the conclusion that nowadays most FOH chaps (even the very good ones) with a decent rig at their disposal are obsessed with sub-bass and a bass tone that goes 'FLOOOOOOOOOM'.

They tend to forget that it's a musical instrument, and not solely a means to loosen the audience's bowels.

It's frustrating, but.. all you can do is plead with them and hope.

 

[Gab124]

Interesting thread. Sound is always the big stress factor I think with live performance. I always ran a big rig and set my level of stage volume for me (no monitor) and let the PA meet me for the out front mix. This does not always work well with the sound engineer . But when you have a loud drum set on stage everyone struggles to hear each other resulting in a great deal of stage volume for the PA to compete and mix with. Lots of opportunity to have muddiness I think. Recently our drummer moved to a high end electric drum set (wow they sound so much better these days). Anyway, due to this our stage volume has gone down and I moved to going DI only (post, no extreme settings) from my Streamliner, no rig at all. We use large full spectrum monitors on stage (basically wedge shaped mains). The result for us is the best live sound we have ever had, and the best stage sound I have ever heard. We do two sound checks, one for stage and one out front. Really makes playing live fun again. After all that, I guess I am trying to say is that a GOOD DI ran by a competent sound engineer sounds as good as any recording I have ever heard - and it should as most studios record that way. Good luck sir.

 

[joelb79]

I think that the OP is not providing enough information for us to really troubleshoot this. The amp sounds ok, but super compressed. The PA is probably not sounding this way. My hunch is that there is a supreme lack of mids in the bass tone coming from the signal chain into the DI causing the signal the board gets to be overwhelmed with lows and highs. I can bet the sound engineer is getting a pretty hot signal in respect to the lows. He would be dialing it back in the level then dialing out your highs and lows to make the mids stand out right. I would guess that the bass tone has a whole lot of the following frequencies:

40-60hz
2.5khz - 5khz.

Your cabinets are probably chopping those frequencies off, and the tone you are hearing in your head probably has lots of that. By adding them back in your pre-DI signal chain you are screwing your PA sound to get the amp to sound the way you want. I happen to think that an EQ change would do you good. Bass guitar has a lot of power and sound in the 120-500hz range. If your taking those frequencies out your taking the guts out of your tone. and I think thats what I'm hearing. One way you could try to make this sound better is to EQ your bass tone for the PA in your sound check with the amp off, then turn your amp back on and make the amp sound the way you want. Then you have it both ways. No sound man can make a miracle happen if the signal he first gets is not tailored to him.

 

[Floyd Eye]

I am of the mind that my rig should be my monitor. That being said, and as I have pointed out already, I have very little experience with my rig being hooked into a PA.

The reason I started this thread and my apologies if I seemed like I was being an ***, is because in the 2 times I have been hooked into a PA, I was very unhappy with the way I sounded.

The guy who owns the bar I am playing next weekend also runs the sound. I have heard from 2 other bands and a few other people that he doesn't really know what he's doing. I am considering asking him if I can come in early and work out the sound if I am going to be hooked into his system. He really seems like he wants us to sound good as it is his name on the line too, so I doubt if he will be purposely difficult. I think mic'ing the 4x10 and running a clean DI is a good place to start. Am I wrong?

 

[Johnny Crab]

Floyd: You're on the right track(rig = monitor when FOH is provided).
Get a great DI and a GREATER mic(Sennheiser or other). Take them with you to use. Lose the 18(or leave it unplugged and use it as a stand for elevating your 4x10) unless you're outdoors on a huge stage where the FOH lows can't "get back" to you. My 2 cents.

Super-loud spandex days of the 70's and 80's?
DI = unaffected and EQ'ed at the board for LOWS only
Mic = midway between the outer edge and center of a screaming 10(SVT or Trace Elliot), Sennheiser 421. EQ'd for mids and highs.
PA tone killed.

Now when we have GOOD FOH indoors(i.e. a club)?
No mic.
Line 6 BassPODXTLive->split with one signal to DI and one to AMP IN of Behringer BX1200's(Hartke clone wedges, like a tiltback monitor for me).
The FOH does the bass/heavy-lifting and the no-lows Behringers let me hear myself anywhere on stage. Took me 40 years to figure this out.

Huge stage outdoors with GOOD FOH?
Line 6->Sansamp RBI->QSC-> one SWR Henry next to vertical-stacked ACME B2's.
No mic as the FOH still gets the Line 6 "color".

 

[joelb79]

I think the 70's model from the this post above will be the way through for the tone/band. JMO coming from experience. However, I do it all with a VT bass and a Multicomp and passive basses, any tone I need. So.. that's my DI signal. My amp is a monitor only, so its a bit excessive at 500w/410's. If there is no sound guy I'm good to go with this rig too. Never been happier.

I still think the problem is mids

 

[Floyd Eye]

I judiciously use the mids on my EQ on my rig. This apparently does not translate over to the board though.

Maybe I just got crap gear and need to figure out a way to come up with some better stuff.

 

[Gearhead17]

I judiciously use the mids on my EQ on my rig. This apparently does not translate over to the board though.

Maybe I just got crap gear and need to figure out a way to come up with some better stuff.

The BBE unit hurts the midrange and the RBI has a drop in the midrange around 750hz. Boosting your rig on stage may help bring up the midrange to a decent level, but you still lost a good portion of your tone.

I suggest getting another pre-amp just for clean bass tones - something that does not inherently kill the midrange. Ampeg, Eden, and so on.

Sending a clean tone of just your bass (or the post effect of the clean pre-ampp) and a miked tone/direct tone of the RBI would be the way to go. You don't loose the midrange and the overdrive tone from the RBI can be blended nicely.