Do all high end basses need preamps?

[mongo2]

I'm well aware of how various techniques can change the tone. I'm not going to spend the whole night digging at the bridge if the EQ is too boomy and I'm not gonna play on the neck all night if there's too much high end. My technique changes how I see fit. I'm not gonna be uncomfortable all night because the soundman is a nimrod.

Of course not. The operative phrase is "on the fly" in his remark. I find it sufficient to the purpose at hand to alter my technique a bit for perhaps half a tune and do it very naturally. When the song is over is the time when I may futz around with knobs or explain things to the soundguy on a break if necessary.

But guess what, after all the changes are made the soundguy can still screw it up all over again.

Edit: However, I usually find it difficult to hear the FOH bass tone from the stage so it's very likely I may not know what the sound out there is like at all times.

 

[mongo2]

That works too... but it obviously has limitations.

Please, see my post above.

 

[Baryonyx]

It does for me. I learned to float a long time ago.

And replace frequencies that the soundman has cut out? Amazing! I have tired plucking from the neck to the bridge, yet I cannot do this! Methinks you're missing Spade's point!

 

[dave251]

I think most people like a nice build quality. Not everyone likes active basses.

I know I don't.

If I were having a custom built, it's not going to have anything on it that I don't want. That would include an on board pre, or a bridge p/u. I have no use for those, and wouldn't want them on my bass. If a builder won't build it without that stuff, they're not going to get my business. I would think that most custom builders would acomodate what the customer wants, within reason anyway. I've been kicking the idea of some kind of Super Precision for a while, and spoke with a couple of builders that didn't offer anything with a P p/u, but would do it for a slight upcharge. I'm sure if you wanted to delete an onboard pre, most custom builders would work with you.

If I were considering resale, I might have that stuff put in it, but honestly, I don't buy basses with selling them in mind.

I think this quote brings up the question....WHY does the bass need an onboard preamp?

Here's a perspective from this designer/builder.....

I want as FEW gain stages as possible between my hand and the loudspeakers. This will generally lead to a more "natural", player friendly touch sensitivity and dynamic attack transient. So my instruments are designed to be passive, as this eliminates AT LEAST two, and usually the four or five gain stages of the typical onboard preamp.

So I kind of look at onboard preamps as "fixing it in the mix", rather than having the tonal and playing response RIGHT at the outset. Yes, this brings more responsibility to the luthier, but I welcome that challenge. Let me get the instrument as "toneful" as I can, rather than relying on electronics to fix any problems or for tonal "correction".

That being said, there are legitimate reasons for all of that onboard tone control, ie, versatility related to the player's situation. If the bassist is required to cop a dozen different sounds, then that onboard preamp can certainly deliver. However, I've figured out a well defined set of tones through a stricly passive format. Not the widest set....I'm not trying to be the "end all" and cover all the territory...rather, I'll offer a usable set of sounds with my instruments, and deliver to the player a highly touch sensitive and responsive playing experience. Perhaps "expressive" is the word........

 

[savit260]

But guess what, after all the changes are made the soundguy can still screw it up all over again.

Edit: However, I usually find it difficult to hear the FOH bass tone from the stage so it's very likely I may not know what the sound out there is like at all times.

+10000000

"Fix" the soundguys mix enough times, and I'd bet dollars to donuts, he'll take you out of the mix all together.

Hell, a lot of the times the monitor mix is totally different than the FOH mix, and coming from a different board. I wouldn't be tweaking my tone off a monitor mix anyway. I prefer to let the sound man do his job, and not do things to piss him off, like noodle with knobs after sound check. (requiered IMO, IME YMMV, and any other acronym that might apply)

Quickly set my amp to where I want it.... Both knobs on the bass to wide open postitions, and let the sound guy do the rest works just fine by me. (again, speaking only for myself, your experiences might be entirely different)

 

[savit260]

I think this quote brings up the question....WHY does the bass need an onboard preamp?

Here's a perspective from this designer/builder.....

I want as FEW gain stages as possible between my hand and the loudspeakers. This will generally lead to a more "natural", player friendly touch sensitivity and dynamic attack transient. So my instruments are designed to be passive, as this eliminates AT LEAST two, and usually the four or five gain stages of the typical onboard preamp.

So I kind of look at onboard preamps as "fixing it in the mix", rather than having the tonal and playing response RIGHT at the outset. Yes, this brings more responsibility to the luthier, but I welcome that challenge. Let me get the instrument as "toneful" as I can, rather than relying on electronics to fix any problems or for tonal "correction".

That being said, there are legitimate reasons for all of that onboard tone control, ie, versatility related to the player's situation. If the bassist is required to cop a dozen different sounds, then that onboard preamp can certainly deliver. However, I've figured out a well defined set of tones through a stricly passive format. Not the widest set....I'm not trying to be the "end all" and cover all the territory...rather, I'll offer a usable set of sounds with my instruments, and deliver to the player a highly touch sensitive and responsive playing experience. Perhaps "expressive" is the word........

Sounds like your speaking my language here.

Particulalry this part.

I've figured out a well defined set of tones through a stricly passive format. Not the widest set....I'm not trying to be the "end all" and cover all the territory

I'm personaly gald there are basses out there that can be "all things to all people" or can "cover lots of ground and be super versitle" however, a guy like me... I just want a simple super high qualitiy passive P bass tone, with no fuss. I might even like it wrapped up in a nice high quality hand crafted custom bass at some point. I do have a lovely hand crafted Bacchus, but the single coil tone doesn't really cut if for me, and no pre amp is going to "fix" that either. I'm sure that's not what the "mainstream" of custom buyers would want, but I'm sure I can find some builder to acomodate my needs and wants at some point.

Am I so wrong to want that?

 

[NickyBass]

Am I so wrong to want that?

Nope. Not at all. And I think that is what it comes down to. Is anyone wrong for wanting what they want?

I have my preferences. I'm kind of in the middle ground. I like high end passive basses. As long as the next guy is happy and grooving, I don't bother with what they play.

 

[savit260]

Nope. Not at all. And I think that is what it comes down to. Is anyone wrong for wanting what they want?

Apparently yeah. I don't want an active pre in my bass, so clearly I'm a "Rube" who has no idea what it's like to play a "good" bass, let alone play in a working band on a stage someplace. I clearly have NO CLUE what works best for me. Maybe I should stay home and practice untill I'm good enough to play something more than "Smoke On the Water" with my thumbs, and need and active pre-amp.
(sarcasm)

 

[NickyBass]

Apparently yeah. I don't want an active pre in my bass, so clearly I'm a "Rube" who has no idea what it's like to play a "good" bass, let alone play in a working band on a stage someplace. I clearly have NO CLUE what works best for me. Maybe I should stay home and practice untill I'm good enough to play something more than "Smoke On the Water" with my thumbs, and need and active pre-amp.
(sarcasm)

Yeah, I've been insulted on TB for my choice of bass. I do think that people get too defensive and say stuff that they don't mean. It happens on both sides, so I usually try to stay neutral if I can't stay positive.

 

[savit260]

Yeah, I've been insulted on TB for my choice of bass. I do think that people get too defensive and say stuff that they don't mean. It happens on both sides, so I usually try to stay neutral if I can't stay positive.

I just get a good laugh out of it.

I can be a bit opinionated myself sometime.


I'll take the insults to heart, when people stop coming out to see shows, and stop buying c.d.'s.

 

[spade2you]

So I kind of look at onboard preamps as "fixing it in the mix", rather than having the tonal and playing response RIGHT at the outset. Yes, this brings more responsibility to the luthier, but I welcome that challenge. Let me get the instrument as "toneful" as I can, rather than relying on electronics to fix any problems or for tonal "correction".

Yes, these aren't necessarily what a pre should only be used for. But let's face it, sometimes people want a bass that is so unique that there is nothing out there to compare it to. My last 2 basses were exactly that. I know how they sound now and would order something similar with different pickup placement if I had a ton of money. Without the active pre-amp, the basses simply wouldn't be as useful in normal contexts. I'm not saying they're bad sounds, but they didn't quite sound like they did in my head as I was designing them. Luthiers aren't fortune tellers. Sure, they have experience with what they've done before, but some of us enjoy doing new stuff that hasn't been done before.

The proper uses for the pre-amps is to allow for tonal shaping. If you're spending $4k-ish on a bass, you might want it to cover a LOT of ground. Yes, I admit that I have a few of my expensive basses dialed in to one sound, but I have the luxury of switching basses when I want to switch tones. If I decide to bring one bass to a gig, I'm very confident that I can utilize the pre to shape my tones to fit all sorts of tones I like.

I'm not going to say that high end players are superior players, but often utilize various techniques that are complimented very well by the active pre-amp packages. You don't hafta look much further than some modern gospel music with a Ken Smith bass to notice that the slap tone sounds killer. With slap, you can contour the tone to work with how your hands sound. It would be nice to learn how to slap exactly like someone else to get that tone naturally, but isn't it difficult enough learning the songs right without having to learn how each slap player does stuff differently? Changing frequency boosts/cuts seems to be a very efficient means of dialing in exact tones a lot of players want.

Yes, sometimes the high end dudes take a solo. We need a little extra volume and usually some more mids to gain some clarity. Playing a little harder might work in some cases, but it's amazingly easy to boost the mids and not turn playing into a workout.

 

[savit260]

The proper uses for the pre-amps is to allow for tonal shaping. If you're spending $4k-ish on a bass, you might want it to cover a LOT of ground.

Or you just might want a bass that does one basic thing exeptionaly well. This reminds me of the old Dual Purpose Motorcycle. Yep, it can go off road, and it can do the street too. Doesn't do either as well as a dedicated road bike or dirt bike. It's a comprimise. I personaly, for my own uses (not yours or anyone elses) would rather have a stellar sounding P bass than something that can cop a whole bunch of differnt tones.

If I decide to bring one bass to a gig, I'm very confident that I can utilize the pre to shape my tones to fit all sorts of tones I like.

Cool..

and I know I can get all the sounds I need and desire from one split coil pickup and two knobs.

You don't hafta look much further than some modern gospel music with a Ken Smith bass to notice that the slap tone sounds killer. With slap, you can contour the tone to work with how your hands sound. It would be nice to learn how to slap exactly like someone else to get that tone naturally, but isn't it difficult enough learning the songs right without having to learn how each slap player does stuff differently? Changing frequency boosts/cuts seems to be a very efficient means of dialing in exact tones a lot of players want.

Last I checked, not eveyone is a slapper,or is trying to cop someone elses tone.

Yes, sometimes the high end dudes take a solo. We need a little extra volume and usually some more mids to gain some clarity. Playing a little harder might work in some cases, but it's amazingly easy to boost the mids and not turn playing into a workout.

Cool, glad that works for ya.

 

[spade2you]

Or you just might want a bass that does one basic thing exeptionaly well. This reminds me of the old Dual Purpose Motorcycle. Yep, it can go off road, and it can do the street too. Doesn't do either as well as a dedicated road bike or dirt bike. It's a comprimise. I personaly, for my own uses (not yours or anyone elses) would rather have a stellar sounding P bass than something that can cop a whole bunch of differnt tones.



Cool..

and I know I can get all the sounds I need and desire from one split coil pickup and two knobs.


Last I checked, not eveyone is a slapper,or is trying to cop someone elses tone.



Cool, glad that works for ya.

I'm sorry we suck. Teach me your ways, what kind of jeans and what color pick guard will make us a better player?

What the hell are you even doing here? You don't play high end basses. You usually frown on the ****** players who use them and boast how cover bands are the only way to go.

Troll elsewhere.

 

[RLK]

Many unintended consequences can occur when trying to trump the sound man.
That’s a whole other thread.

My answer to the OP:
You don’t HAVE TO go active on any bass if the PUs don’t depend on extra gain for the proper output.

Hard to argue against having more on-board options, though I rarely go to those options.
99.9% of the time, I end up tweaking the amp for the room, my pres wind up set flat, and I roll off the treble a tad to temper my roundwound “plucks and clanks”.
I don’t miss the pres when using my passives, and I prefer the functional and visual simplicity.

Interesting, with my Pulcinella, going passive would have strayed from standard specs and would have been an up-charge.
I don’t prefer passive that much.

My current custom (passive) Laggan fretless 7 has a push/ pull knob to select between cutting highs or cutting mids. It works real well, though I’ll admit the (Bart) PUs are tad less “hot” than I like
My upcoming Ramirez 7 is being wired the same, only the PUs will be specifically wound “hot”.

P.S.
I had the cavities in both 7s made big enough to fit a pre, just in case.

 

[spade2you]

Last I checked, not eveyone is a slapper,or is trying to cop someone elses tone.

Wait a sec, aren't you always trying to cop the vintage tone and pissing on those who have their own tone??? :scowl:

 

[savit260]

I'm sorry we suck. Teach me your ways, what kind of jeans and what color pick guard will make us a better player?

What the hell are you even doing here? You don't play high end basses. You usually frown on the ****** players who use them and boast how cover bands are the only way to go.

Troll elsewhere.

What on earth are you talking about Spade?

I own and gigged for years a Pre CBS Fender Precision. I think the price tag on those these days would be considered "high end" by any standard.

I also own a Hand Crafted Bacchus 51 syle Precision, that is on a quality level on par with the best of the high end Fender Clones IMO. There are a few other guys here that play and own Bacchus', and I'm sure that they'll tell ya, there build quality is right up there.

I"ve been considering a custom build for a while now. When the stars line up with a builder that will do what I want, I may just buy one. It's going to have to be exactly what I want though, and that would be a totaly passive bass with a spit coil P/U. Am I not allowed to have an interest in a custom built bass because I prefer something you don't?

I've never frowned on ANYONE for what they play. I have given my opinions on what works best for me personaly.

You seem to feel free to give your opinons, but leave no room for opinions that are different than your own.

I said repeatedly, "glad that works for you". Was that unclear?


I never once said, you, or anyone else for that matter sucks for what they play. I have however said that what works for Spade2u isn't necissarily appropriate for everyone. Nor is what is appropriate for me appropriate for everyone.

Boasting about how cover bands are the only way to go? Again, where does this stuff come from? I don't play in a cover band, although I see nothng wrong with it if anyone does.

If you must know, although I don't bring this up on this forum ever,....Both my bands do original material, with international label support and distrobution, and the same goes for my ex band. Probaly not anyting you'd like, but regardless, we've managed to do o.k.

It's AMAZING to me Spade that you can't seem to understand that some people might want something different out of a bass than what you want. That's the point of my posts.

Maybe you don't read it that way, but that is the intention.

What color jeans and pickguards? Again, where does this come from?

 

[savit260]

Wait a sec, aren't you always trying to cop the vintage tone and pissing on those who have their own tone??? :scowl:

No Spade, not at all. I'm saying not everyone is trying to get the same tone. There's room for it all out there. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[namraj]

. or a bridge p/u. I have no use for those, and wouldn't want them on my bass.

do you never play harmonics?

 

[namraj]

+10000000

"Fix" the soundguys mix enough times, and I'd bet dollars to donuts, he'll take you out of the mix all together.

Hell, a lot of the times the monitor mix is totally different than the FOH mix, and coming from a different board. I wouldn't be tweaking my tone off a monitor mix anyway. I prefer to let the sound man do his job, and not do things to piss him off, like noodle with knobs after sound check. (requiered IMO, IME YMMV, and any other acronym that might apply)

Quickly set my amp to where I want it.... Both knobs on the bass to wide open postitions, and let the sound guy do the rest works just fine by me. (again, speaking only for myself, your experiences might be entirely different)

what happened to talking to the sound guy?

eg. "i like to have a mid scoop for some songs when I slap but most of the time I like my mids boosted so i cut through the mix, you mind if i do that on my onboard pre?"

 

[savit260]

do you never play harmonics?

No I don't. I'm sure if you do then you'd want that. I'm speaking only for myself and my needs. I think that was perfectly clear from the wording.