Do I really need to know my modes?

[MtManiac]

@dkelley is right. You are confusing scales and modes. Modes are generated from a given scale. A mode does not yield a scale. Modes are used for example in chord sequences like ii-V-I within the frame of scale.
You can take the interval sequence of a mode and say it's a scale but it doesn't make it 'usable', 'interesting' or have any harmonic meaning (eg being able to draw harmonious chord sequences from such a scale). Hence a mode is not a scale, though both are intervals sequences.

It might interest you to know that a mode can also determine the chord structure within a key, and create a whole new scale as a result. For example, the whole reason why there is such a scale as the Harmonic Minor scale (which is not a mode) is so that when playing in a minor key, which would normally be harmonized from the Aeolian mode, it's often that the v chord is substituted with a V7 chord in order to create some root-oriented tension. The natural v would of course be the Phrygian of the relative Major scale, and does not create the sort of tension needed to give a minor key its chordal centre - that tension or draw back to the key root to resolve - so it is substituted with the V7 to remind listeners where the chordal centre is. The notes that this adds to the key forms the Harmonic Minor when you add them to the Aeolian chord tones.

 

[MrLenny1]

Yes, once you learn them you're playing will increase
tremendously.
Scott Devine has a good video explaining modes.

 

[mambo4]

Are Modes scales? Let's ask an expert:


" I don't care what your music teacher says, modes are scales. You can call it Lydian scale, that's fine, as long as you know what it sounds like...as long as you know how to use it."

Theory is about describing patterns of 7 out of 12 notes (or other subsets.) The more patterns we learn, the more they overlap, partially or completely. Every new description allows us to think about music in a new way, and that is good. Scale and Mode are almost interchangeable, but have a few distinct connotations. We must keep in mind that the term of description is not the music.

 

[Robscott]

If you are a serious musician, yes. If you are happy plunking out root notes, no.

With respect, that may be your experience but it doesn't mean it's everyone's. Modes are just one way of understanding and rationalising music, there are others. People think of music lots of different ways. Some have an exceptional ear and can play sophisticated music without the need for a theoretical foundation. Or put another way their foundation is more intuitive. I respect musicians that learn and use mode theory when they play, but please don't think that anyone who doesn't access music that way is only capable of plunking out root notes. If you have an ear you can play jazz solos without knowing your modes

 

[MtManiac]

Scale and Mode are almost interchangeable, but have a few distinct connotations.

Yep - all modes are scales, but not all scales are modes - eg. the harmonic minor, pentatonic scales, etc.

We must keep in mind that the term of description is not the music.

Also big yep - theory is an explanation, a framework of understanding, not a set of rules to follow. Follow it as a set of rules to be better assured you'll sound good, but there is a large part of the world making music that does not follow western music theory at all, and non-western traditions are drawn from all the time in western music, so be comfortable breaking the rules once you understand them.

 

[MtManiac]

If you have an ear you can play jazz solos without knowing your modes

True... but very rare... but still true.

 

[mambo4]

all modes are scales, but not all scales are modes

I'm not sure I would be so absolute about that point.
I think any scale can be viewed as a mode of some other scale.
Same subject viewed through different lenses...

 

[MtManiac]

The biggest misconception about modes is that they have anything at all to do with "what note you start from." For example "the C Major scale starting from D is D Dorian."

First example, "Happy Birthday" starts on the 5th scale degree. In the key of C that means it starts on G. So C Major scale starting from G is G Mixolydian, right? Is "Happy Birthday" modal music in G Mixolydian?

No. "Happy Birthday" is in the key of C Major. C Major scale starting on G isn't G Mixolydian; it's still C Major.

Another example, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" starts on the 3rd. So that's C Major Scale starting on E. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" must be in E Phrygian.

What do you think, folks? Can we all agree "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is a modal composition in the key of E Phrygian? Or is it C Major?

You seem to be thinking that melodies are scales. They're not.

 

[Mushroo]

You seem to be thinking that melodies are scales. They're not.

Yup, you get my point exactly:

Melodies are not scales, and chords are not modes.

 

[Kael]

It is absolutely true. You don't know what you don't know.

Modes are a different way of approaching talking about and thinking of music than using chord tones. If you don't know that, then I concur. You don't know what you don't know.

 

[attackz]

Modes are a different way of approaching talking about and thinking of music than using chord tones. If you don't know that, then I concur. You don't know what you don't know.

It might be a different way, although I don’t think one can be traded for another.

If someone asks, “Should I learn chord tones or modes?” the only correct answer is, “Both!”. The rest of the conversation is about prioritization.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Seems it’s only good for mainly soloing. And fills I guess. Your thoughts? And jazz I guess. I play for my church and doesn’t seem like I need it much. But I guess good to know anyway as a bassist. That’s why I wonder what your thoughts are. Thanks

If you play much the chances are that you’re using the fingerings that you’d be practicing through modes. On guitar and electric bass if you don’t want to consciously “study” modes it’s still useful to think of them as being different fingerings for the same notes.

 

[devnulljp]

I don't know about that being only for soloing thing. I play in a lot of different bands/genres, and I think in modes a lot for things like passing notes (although I'm no Rich Brown and my knowledge is still quite limited). Even in the old time fiddle band I play in that is mostly 1-5-1-5-1-5 wash rinse repeat, it could get boring but a lot of that music is modal anyway (so the guitarist thinks the song is in C, but it's more like C Dorian so I get to pull in notes from Bb as passing tones between sections, focus on b3 and b7, and it spices things up a little).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

not all scales are modes - eg. the harmonic minor

But the guitar players are learning those modes.

Modes of The Harmonic Minor Scale For Guitar

Modes Of The Harmonic Minor Scale - TalkingBass

 

[Whousedtoplay]

not all scales are modes - eg. pentatonic scales,

(Only for the guitar players.)
"The name would be consistent with how modes are typically named and shown as follows:
D Dorian pentatonic - D, E, G, A, C.
E Phrygian pentatonic - E, G, A, C, D.
G Mixolydian pentatonic - G, A, C, D, E.
A minor pentatonic - A, C, D, E , G...

Different modes of pentatonic scale



Specialized Lessons - Pentatonic Modes
Specialized Lessons
Pentatonic Modes


"Pentatonics vs. Modes

Modes and pentatonics are used in the same manner when improvising and can be interchanged with each other. (A pentatonic is just a sub-set of a mode.) However, modes are key-specific while pentatonics can be used in other keys (just like the corresponding chords.) For example a G ionian mode can only be used in the key of one sharp but a G pentatonic can be used wherever a G chord appears --number one in the key of G (one sharp), number four in the key of D (two sharps), and number five in the key of C (no sharps or flats). An A dorian mode can only be used in the key of one sharp but an Am pentatonic can be used wherever an Am chord appears--number two in the key of G (one sharp), number three in the key of F (one flat), and number six in the key of C (no sharps or flats.)

A trade-off occurs: Modes are easier to play within a key because they all have the same notes in them, therefore they create the same fingerings. However, each mode is used only in that specific key. Pentatonics are more difficult because there are three unique fingerings (for each major there is a relative minor). However, they can be used in two other keys."

 

[MtManiac]

But the guitar players are learning those modes.

Modes of The Harmonic Minor Scale For Guitar

Modes Of The Harmonic Minor Scale - TalkingBass

(Only for the guitar players.)
"The name would be consistent with how modes are typically named and shown as follows:
D Dorian pentatonic - D, E, G, A, C.
E Phrygian pentatonic - E, G, A, C, D.
G Mixolydian pentatonic - G, A, C, D, E.
A minor pentatonic - A, C, D, E , G...

Different modes of pentatonic scale

Specialized Lessons - Pentatonic Modes
Specialized Lessons
Pentatonic Modes

Sure, you can create modes of these scales, but my point was just that these scales are not modes.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Sure, you can create modes of these scales, but my point was just that these scales are not modes.

You mean, "not in a traditional way of classical harmony"?

 

[MtManiac]

You mean, "not in a traditional way of classical harmony"?

Ok, if you like.

"The modes" usually refers to modes of the diatonic scales, which have seven tones. The major and minor pentatonic scales and the harmonic minor scale are not modes of the Major diatonic scale.

That make you happy?

 

[knight of ni]

It might interest you to know that a mode can also determine the chord structure within a key, and create a whole new scale as a result. For example, the whole reason why there is such a scale as the Harmonic Minor scale (which is not a mode) is so that when playing in a minor key, which would normally be harmonized from the Aeolian mode, it's often that the v chord is substituted with a V7 chord in order to create some root-oriented tension. The natural v would of course be the Phrygian of the relative Major scale, and does not create the sort of tension needed to give a minor key its chordal centre - that tension or draw back to the key root to resolve - so it is substituted with the V7 to remind listeners where the chordal centre is. The notes that this adds to the key forms the Harmonic Minor when you add them to the Aeolian chord tones.

I know that.
As I said, scales and modes are interval sequences. So it seems ok to 'merge' one with another since they are similar. However the concept is different. Modes are the the set of interval sequences found in a scale. They can be minor, major etc. You can play any mode over the parent scale, over any chord of the parent scale for example when walking. It may not be tasteful, you may hear a bass line disconnected from the rest, but it works.
Another reason for which the natural minor scale has been altered to minor melodic and minor harmonic (apart those you exposed) is that since it is made of the same notes of the relative major scale it does sound like it because the modes are the same.
Plus if you use a mode as a scale, not only you're back with the same modes in a different order but all the harmonic functions of the chords may be lost in the process : you have to 'tweak' the scale for it to work again (as you explained for natural minor).
So a scale has a whole harmonic background with its degrees/chords a mode doesn't have.
If scales and modes were equal, you'd be changing scale every chord. Tonal vs modal wouldn't mean anything, etc.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Ok, if you like.

"The modes" usually refers to modes of the diatonic scales, which have seven tones. The major and minor pentatonic scales and the harmonic minor scale are not modes of the Major diatonic scale.

That make you happy?

Yes!