Do I really need to know my modes?

[Papageno]

From the brightest to the darkest:

Lydian = 1 2 3 4# 5 6 7 (8)
Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8) (= major scale)
Mixolydian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (8)
Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (8)
Aeolian = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (8) (= natural minor scale)
Phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (8)
Locrian = 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 (8)

How difficult is that ? You just need to sit in front on of a keyboard and play them until you get their sound in your ear, and then play them on your bass until you get them under your fingers.

Instead of thinking them as the notes of a major scale starting from another note (eg. dorian is C major starting from D, mixolydian is C major starting from G, etc...) it is much more useful to learn and practice the various modes for the same tonal center: eg G lydian, G ionian, G mixolydian, G dorian, etc... And to notice how the location of the half tones move towards the lower part of the mode as one progresses (in the order given above), making the modes sounding darker as you progress.

Ideally, it is good to be able to play all of them in all 12 keys There is no better way to learn to know your fingerboard in depth. If that seems too much to you, you can concentrate on playing (and hearing !) the most used modes (ionian, mixolydian, dorian, lydian) in the keys that come up most frequently.

Once you are done with this, you can proceed with the modes of the melodic minor scale and explore some alternate sound:
1 2 3 4# 5# 6 7 (8)
1 2 3 4# 5 6 b7 (8)
etc.

 

[attackz]

I have a question for you Why aren’t you excited to learn the modes?

 

[Papageno]

By the way: what is most important about modes is to know and recognize their sound, and be able to sing them. The Greek names are not so important, though they are helpful whenever you want to communicate verbally with other musicians.
So actually modes are a great ear training practice.

 

[somebrains]

Nope, not confused, me.
Sorry, but modes are indeed scales, that one may share notes with each other and one may be a mode of the other does not change that one bit.
And yes, when people speak of 'the' major scale, they tend to refer to the Ionian mode.
In music things(terms) are sometimes allowed to coincide and semantics can get in the way.

Quickest way to illustrate your point is to make someone run thru a Coltrane solo note for note, then have the same sheets up where the solo was blank with chord changes mid measure.

 

[Groove Master]

No but Yes !

 

[JoeWPgh]

Here's the thing about knowing and understanding things like modes. It better equips you to communicate with others. This is kind of important when it's time to collaborate with others. It's part of the musical language, vocabulary. Of course, others need to understand such things too. Without a shared language and vocabulary, you might as well try to explain algebra to a poodle.

 

[cnltb]

Quickest way to illustrate your point is to make someone run thru a Coltrane solo note for note, then have the same sheets up where the solo was blank with chord changes mid measure.

Depending on which of the points you are referring to an deven quicker way might be to ask them wether or not they consider the aeolaean mode ( aka. natural minor scale ) a scale or not. No?

 

[Robscott]

Every time modes raise their heads in one of these posts it provokes a million different opinions about what they are and who's right and how to use them, so it's difficult to see where they are any help at all (unless you get that 100 to 1 shot when two musicians with the same understanding of modes are in the room together. Ears on the other hand, well, we all hear the same notes don't we.........? Just sayin

 

[consectaneus]

I don't usually think of modes as different scales. I just imagine the entire scale as a repeating pattern. I can start on which note (mode) I want to.

This is true, and how it was first explained to me ( in a Guitar Player magazine column). That turned on the light bulb. BUT, I have never been able to do that in playing. I have to think of each mode as a separate scale of its own---same with chord tones, I think of each with its own root note and flat the thirds and sevenths (etc) depending on its function in a progression.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Quickest way to illustrate your point is to make someone run thru a Coltrane solo note for note, then have the same sheets up where the solo was blank with chord changes mid measure.

What exactly is this supposed to illustrate? Forgive me, for not understanding the message here.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Yep - all modes are scales, but not all scales are modes - eg. the harmonic minor, pentatonic scales, etc.

From your previous posts, it seems like you are associating the word "mode" to only include that pitch collection of notes that is related specifically to those "Diatonic Western Harmony(tm)" notes with the funny Greek names. In actuality, a mode is merely what I said it was. A pitch collection. Harmonic Minor, Melodic minor, Pentatonics, Hirajoshi Scales, whatever you want, can and do have related pitch collections. So the upshort of this is that, all scales can have modes, since all scales can be ordered into various pitch collections. And in fact, Harmonic and Melodic minor scales have specific names for their modes. They are just not Greek...

Time has moved on. It's not just about those Greek names anymore. All the Greek names do for you in modern application is give you a point of reference for an overall sound created by that diatonic harmony. And in my mind, that "modes is mood" thing doesn't even apply anymore, but people are stuck on it, because that's all they know to say. Because - there are other scales out there...

The reality is that modes are just a pitch collections of notes from whatever scale you want to choose, played from different starting points. And application-wise all that does is allow you to play that one huge scale all over the neck of the bass. Because it really is just one scale. The names just give you a point of reference for your study - a way to break it into chunks and then eventually consolidate it. That's when you actually start to understand how to use them and not just talk about them.

Anyway, that's how I see and approach it.

 

[MtManiac]

From your previous posts, it seems like you are associating the word "mode" to only include that pitch collection of notes that is related specifically to those "Diatonic Western Harmony(tm)" notes with the funny Greek names. In actuality, a mode is merely what I said it was. A pitch collection. Harmonic Minor, Melodic minor, Pentatonics, Hirajoshi Scales, whatever you want, can and do have related pitch collections. So the upshort of this is that, all scales can have modes, since all scales can be ordered into various pitch collections. And in fact, Harmonic and Melodic minor scales have specific names for their modes. They are just not Greek...

Time has moved on. It's not just about those Greek names anymore. All the Greek names do for you in modern application is give you a point of reference for an overall sound created by that diatonic harmony. And in my mind, that "modes is mood" thing doesn't even apply anymore, but people are stuck on it, because that's all they know to say. Because - there are other scales out there...

The reality is that modes are just a pitch collections of notes from whatever scale you want to choose, played from different starting points. And application-wise all that does is allow you to play that one huge scale all over the neck of the bass. Because it really is just one scale. The names just give you a point of reference for your study - a way to break it into chunks and then eventually consolidate it. That's when you actually start to understand how to use them and not just talk about them.

Anyway, that's how I see and approach it.

So, in the past ten years or so “time has moved on” from nodes being what they’ve been since prehistory? Interesting. Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge.

 

[Spin Doctor]

So, in the past ten years or so “time has moved on” from nodes being what they’ve been since prehistory? Interesting. Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge.

Western Diatonic modes are still referred to by the traditional Greek names which is just semantics. The "modern" musical approach and thought process surrounding them (and modes in general) has changed since the days of Gregorian Chants. If it hasn't for you then that's fine. Time-wise it's more like 80 years, not ten.

 

[MtManiac]

Western Diatonic modes are still referred to by the traditional Greek names which is just semantics. The "modern" musical approach and thought process surrounding them (and modes in general) has changed since the days of Gregorian Chants. If it hasn't for you then that's fine. Time-wise it's more like 80 years, not ten.

Ok.

Substantially, I don’t see any difference whatsoever in what you’re saying and what I’ve said, so I’m missing whatever this big revelation is you’re trying to impress me with. But with your condescending tone, I have to also say IDGAF what you have to say, so not much point in quoting my comments anymore.

 

[JoeWPgh]

I see modes as being the focal point of a key signature. D dorian might be the same notes as C major. But I see the C major scale entirely differently when I'm in D minor. The difference in the modes is their relative, 5 note pentatonic scales, which are predominant to each mode.
In C major, you get c d e g a
In D dorian, you get d f g a c
There's only 3 shared notes between them, but all still C major.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I see modes as being the focal point of a key signature. D dorian might be the same notes as C major. But I see the C major scale entirely differently when I'm in D minor. The difference in the modes is their relative, 5 note pentatonic scales, which are predominant to each mode.
In C major, you get c d e g a
In D dorian, you get d f g a c
There's only 3 shared notes between them, but all still C major.

Modes work the same way for pentatonics as they do for regular diatonic scales. So all the notes are still the same. So for C major pentatonic you were right in saying the notes are c d e g a. But the mode for a "Dorian" pentatonic in the key of C is: d e g a c. What you were describing is the natural minor pentatonic in the key of F, not C. If you want to describe the minor pentatonic based on the Aeolian mode (natural minor) in the key of C, it's: a c d e g. In a mode of any scale, the notes never change. Just the starting position.

Actually, the gag is that all modes connect together into one long scale all up and down the neck, like puzzle pieces, which is handy for using to navigate the neck of the bass, once you learn to manipulate them. I don't think there is an official name for modes of pentatonics, so I just refer to them as "degrees" i.e. major pentatonic is 1st degree, the next is 2nd degree, then 3rd, 5th and 6th. Incidentally, the 6th degree pentatonic is what everyone likes to call "the minor pentatonic". When in fact there are 3 minor penatonics in any major key. This is why I say the mode of any scale is just the same scale, played from a different starting note.

So if you take say the 3rd degree pentatonic in the key of C: e g a c d, you will see that it fits perfectly into the "shape" of the E phrygian mode, if you play the Phrygian mode with 3 notes per string. Clearly a minor sound. Hopefully this makes sense. It's not too tough a concept, but it takes some time to get.

If you want to see how penatonics are used to navigate the neck, the first video illustrates that. He calls the lesson linear sequences of minor pentatonics, but you have to use all the "modes" of the pentatonics to do it. You work on them independently, one mode/degree at time, then you combine them. The following examples are what I mean when I talk about "learning to manipulate" the pentatonics. It takes years of thought and practice to get good at it. Interestingly, if you play R&B, funk Neo-Soul, etc, you'll find that the 2nd and 3rd degree pentatonics are the ones you use like 90% of the time for your fills. You almost never (or I don't anyway) use the 6th degree "minor pentatonic" for that type of music, even though it's the one everyone likes to talk about. You mostly use that for the Blues and Rock.I guess that's why people like to talk about it, but it's only part of the story.



Here is another approach

 

[somebrains]

What exactly is this supposed to illustrate? Forgive me, for not understanding the message here.

I started as a sax player.
We were taught a lot of theory, application of theory in a musical expression was part of our chair challenges.

Coltrane was a particular favorite for one teacher that liked to go on and on about theory.

He was a trumpet player, and ironically never wanted us to work on Miles Davis sheets bc the classes all knew Miles was singing it more

 

[IamGroot]

From your previous posts, it seems like you are associating the word "mode" to only include that pitch collection of notes that is related specifically to those "Diatonic Western Harmony(tm)" notes with the funny Greek names. In actuality, a mode is merely what I said it was. A pitch collection. Harmonic Minor, Melodic minor, Pentatonics, Hirajoshi Scales, whatever you want, can and do have related pitch collections. So the upshort of this is that, all scales can have modes, since all scales can be ordered into various pitch collections. And in fact, Harmonic and Melodic minor scales have specific names for their modes. They are just not Greek...

Time has moved on. It's not just about those Greek names anymore. All the Greek names do for you in modern application is give you a point of reference for an overall sound created by that diatonic harmony. And in my mind, that "modes is mood" thing doesn't even apply anymore, but people are stuck on it, because that's all they know to say. Because - there are other scales out there...

The reality is that modes are just a pitch collections of notes from whatever scale you want to choose, played from different starting points. And application-wise all that does is allow you to play that one huge scale all over the neck of the bass. Because it really is just one scale. The names just give you a point of reference for your study - a way to break it into chunks and then eventually consolidate it. That's when you actually start to understand how to use them and not just talk about them.

Anyway, that's how I see and approach it.

I strongly agree with this.
Modes are just the beginning.. the modes of the different scale systems provide a frame of reference for the notes inside the collection and the outside notes used to spice it up.

 

[IamGroot]

Great soloists like Coltrane and Brecker used modal mastery as a building block for their musical expressions. It starts with the modes, it doesn't end there.

Suggestion. John Coltrane's Mr. PC is a 12 bar blues. Which scale systems does Paul Chambers use? Which notes does he emphasize? Which notes does he leave out.

P.s. Paul was a true master but he hid it well.

 

[IamGroot]

More food for thought.

Think of all the 12 bar blues forms you know. Which modes/scales systems match the changes.

Major blues (1 4 5)
Major Blues with 2 5 1 changes
Stormy Monday changes
Minor Blues w 5/4 tar
Minor Blues w #5/5 tar
Minor blues with iim7b5/5 dom
Etc.

The modes are not just a mindless finger exercise. They are a way to approaching getting the right notes in a song and communicating with fellow musicians. At first, you will learn which modes fit the changes congruently. And beyond that, you will learn which "wrong modes" to use to add flavor.