Do I really need to know my modes?

[stringthrough]

At the very least you should, and probably already know the Ionian, Dorian and Mixolydian modes. When you play over a . . . . .

Major chord use the Ionian mode
Minor chord use the Dorian mode
Dominant 7 chord use the Mixolydian mode

Unless you play jazz those modes will get you through 98% of all pop music. (I lump rock, blues, R&B, etc. into "pop".)

 

[Gooney]

What I would suggest is learning the major and pentatonic scales in several, or all, positions. That way no matter where you are on the neck, you know where the notes in the key are.

I don't usually think of modes as different scales. I just imagine the entire scale as a repeating pattern. I can start on which note (mode) I want to.

If you're writing music, you could play around by writing the song in the key of C, but not using C as the focal point. You could base the song around the D minor chord. In this example you'd be playing D Dorian. (same notes as C Major)

Do you need to know this? No, but it will improve your playing in situations where you have some flexibility, or write bass lines.

 

[JoeWPgh]

You probably already know more about modes than you think. They are informative of the chord within the key. If you are in the key of C, the D is a minor chord. The C Maj scale starting on D is the Dorian Mode. The G is a dominant 7 chord. This is the Mixolydian mode. But it's all still C major.
This becomes very clear on a piano, where the C major scale is all the white notes

 

[somebrains]

You have to learn adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, etc in school.

Some people are fine with 1st grade grammar, many have written successful children's books.

Others may want or need more for their basic level of function.

People shouldn't denigrate learning.

 

[kerrycares]

You’re already playing them as they are a part of music.
Now if you know what you’re playing is a different issue.

My teacher told me “ the ear follows the knowledge”.

Modes and theory are a part of music language like reading and writing is a part of speaking and communicating.
What’s my point?
You can speak ,sing and communicate even if you can’t read or write yet knowing to read and write opens up your world to “other” opportunities.

 

[BOOG]

Seems it’s only good for mainly soloing. And fills I guess. Your thoughts? And jazz I guess. I play for my church and doesn’t seem like I need it much. But I guess good to know anyway as a bassist. That’s why I wonder what your thoughts are. Thanks

Do you need to know them? Nope.
Would knowing help? Yep.

 

[attackz]

Why wouldn't you learn them?

 

[Tottery]

You already know them. Each note of a major scale starts a new mode. For example. Play a C major scale. That is Ionian. Now, start on the 2nd note(D) of the major scale and play the rest of the notes in the C major scale back to D octave. That is Dorian. Start on the 3rd note(E) and play the rest of the notes from the major scale back to E. That is Phrygian. etc. etc.

I don't think about modes when I play though. I typically just follow the notes in a chord, but they share the same notes.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Seems it’s only good for mainly soloing. And fills I guess. Your thoughts? And jazz I guess. I play for my church and doesn’t seem like I need it much. But I guess good to know anyway as a bassist. That’s why I wonder what your thoughts are. Thanks

The last time I played what is passing for contemporary Christian music, the bass parts were mostly on root of the chord, 1/4s or 8ths and surprisingly, a whole lot of whole notes. It’s bass for dummies and scales of any sort sound out of place. So to your point, are you going to use modal scales in that genre? Not often. Should you learn them, absolutely.

 

[Upstate SC Bass]

Do you know your major scale? then you already know the modes because they are the same notes
Do you know your major pentatonic scale? then you already know the minor pentatonic scale because it is the same notes

Do you need to know the chromatic scale?
Do you need to know the major scale?

Major scale
Pentatonic scale
Blues Scale
Dorian etc they are not that hard once you understand what they are

We all play known patterns such as a major triad 1,3,5

So the more variety we know the better

Lets face it there are only 12 notes.
May we all explore as many patterns as we can possibly learn in order to use the 12 notes

 

[Bunk McNulty]

I don't know nuthin' about nuthin' but if you're at an open mic and somebody is jamming to a two-chord riff and it's getting really boring, start improvising over the Locrian mode and you'll freak everybody out.

 

[Mushroo]

The biggest misconception about modes is that they have anything at all to do with "what note you start from." For example "the C Major scale starting from D is D Dorian."

First example, "Happy Birthday" starts on the 5th scale degree. In the key of C that means it starts on G. So C Major scale starting from G is G Mixolydian, right? Is "Happy Birthday" modal music in G Mixolydian?

No. "Happy Birthday" is in the key of C Major. C Major scale starting on G isn't G Mixolydian; it's still C Major.

Another example, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" starts on the 3rd. So that's C Major Scale starting on E. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" must be in E Phrygian.

What do you think, folks? Can we all agree "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is a modal composition in the key of E Phrygian? Or is it C Major?

 

[BOOG]

@benchpress11782
Here’s my take on it fwiw...
Knowing the different scales/modes/intervals/inversions and whatever other theory picked up along the way does nothing but help.
For instance, by knowing pentatonic scales and chord scales (modes) it will make everything else easier when it comes to learning new material and improvising. Knowing these things gives me a reference that I refer to when I hear or see something new. If I can identify it, I can remember easier what is being done to learn for myself later.
That’s just one practical example of how knowing theory fundamentals can help.
Another is when communicating with other musicians, it will help you to articulate a thought or idea.

 

[Tottery]

The biggest misconception about modes is that they have anything at all to do with "what note you start from." For example "the C Major scale starting from D is D Dorian."

For example, "Happy Birthday" starts on the 5th scale degree. In the key of C that means it starts on G. So C Major scale starting from G is G Mixolydian, right? Is "Happy Birthday" modal music in G Mixolydian?

No. "Happy Birthday" is in the key of C Major. C Major scale starting on G isn't G Mixolydian; it's still C Major.

Another example, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" starts on the 3rd. So that's C Major Scale starting on E. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" must be in E Phrygian.

What do you think, folks? Can we all agree "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is a modal composition in the key of E Phrygian? Or is it C Major?

Exactly. There are only major and minor keys. They all share the same notes. It's why I don't overthink this.

 

[dkelley]

We're all playing within modes all the time, although with some outside notes of course, just as we do when playing in major, minor, blues, etc scales.

What I would suggest is learning the major and pentatonic scales in several, or all, positions. That way no matter where you are on the neck, you know where the notes in the key are.

I don't usually think of modes as different scales. I just imagine the entire scale as a repeating pattern. I can start on which note (mode) I want to.

If you're writing music, you could play around by writing the song in the key of C, but not using C as the focal point. You could base the song around the D minor chord. In this example you'd be playing D Dorian. (same notes as C Major)

Do you need to know this? No, but it will improve your playing in situations where you have some flexibility, or write bass lines.

That's sort of how I was trying to explain it too. It's the same finger pattern as a major scale, but you put the tonic of the chord you're playing at a different part of the scale fingering and go from there. With my music students it's easy to demonstrate and get an excited "Ah!" moment from them in a matter of minutes.

Trying to describe it online purely through words to a virtual room full of bassists with varying combinations of fundamental theory knowledge and self confidence makes this quite an interesting discussion.

I should know.. I have a huge and fragile ego...I hate being told I'm wrong about something I think I'm right about lol. Music theory is an area where I'm pretty secure though, although there's always more to learn.

I totally get the reactions and disagreements, even if there are simple factual answers to all of this that are getting lost in translation.



Cheers

 

[aprod]

Not-knowledge is power, too.

Dmin7 = D F A C

There are no E, G, or B's in a Dmin7 chord, and therefore we "don't know." We cannot assume 7-note "Dorian mode" just from looking at a 4-note chord out of musical context. And we certainly can't assume that E, G, or B will sound good with the melody and the rest of the instruments in the arrangement, if we've never even heard the song.

Therefore, we keep an open mind, that D Dorian might be a possible fit for Dmin7. But Dmin7 could just as likely be the i chord in D Minor, the ii chord in C Major, or several other possibilities.

Not-knowing is a powerful concept.

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[aprod]

Nope. Different way of thinking of and approaching music. Try again.

It is absolutely true. You don't know what you don't know.

 

[cnltb]

@dkelley is right. You are confusing scales and modes. Modes are generated from a given scale. A mode does not yield a scale. Modes are used for example in chord sequences like ii-V-I within the frame of scale.
You can take the interval sequence of a mode and say it's a scale but it doesn't make it 'usable', 'interesting' or have any harmonic meaning (eg being able to draw harmonious chord sequences from such a scale). Hence a mode is not a scale, though both are intervals sequences.

Nope, not confused, me.
Sorry, but modes are indeed scales, that one may share notes with each other and one may be a mode of the other does not change that one bit.
And yes, when people speak of 'the' major scale, they tend to refer to the Ionian mode.
In music things(terms) are sometimes allowed to coincide and semantics can get in the way.

 

[cnltb]

The biggest misconception about modes is that they have anything at all to do with "what note you start from." For example "the C Major scale starting from D is D Dorian."

First example, "Happy Birthday" starts on the 5th scale degree. In the key of C that means it starts on G. So C Major scale starting from G is G Mixolydian, right? Is "Happy Birthday" modal music in G Mixolydian?

No. "Happy Birthday" is in the key of C Major. C Major scale starting on G isn't G Mixolydian; it's still C Major.

Another example, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" starts on the 3rd. So that's C Major Scale starting on E. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" must be in E Phrygian.

What do you think, folks? Can we all agree "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is a modal composition in the key of E Phrygian? Or is it C Major?

Be careful....!

 

[BOOG]

I've seen at least one example through this thread that contributes to the confusion when trying to sort some of these fundamentals out in discussion. One glaring is referring to the key of a music piece as what scale it is in.

On the topic of understanding modes, this video was the best I found in explaining how they're made/arranged. As far as application, well, that's for each individual to decide and apply as needed.

If you want the secret to learning this stuff very quickly jump to 17:00-17:30 mark.