Do Imports Devalue The Domestic Model Basses?

[LBS-bass]

Maybe I’m crazy, but if I am going to buy a $2k+ bass I sure as heck want to play it first. The idea of not carrying at least a couple US models of any particular brand seems nuts to me.

Why is it nuts when the odds of selling it to you are low?

If I'm the store owner, and you come in to play a $2000 bass that I have in stock, I already have $1600 into that. You and 20 other guys come in to kick tires with Sweetwater in mind, scratch the thing up, say "oh, yeah, it's nice" and walk away to buy something that was never on a sales floor from an online dealer, and at the end of a few months I have a demo unit that I might eventually be able to sell for 10% off.

So that's a retail price of $1800 for something that cost me $1600 plus the time of sales staff catering to 21 people who didn't have any real interest in purchasing the thing from us to begin with. I'm already in negative territory here before that box is even opened to put it on the sales floor.

Nope, it's a lot more sensible for the store owner to cater to people coming in for lower-ticket items - moms and dads looking to by their kids first instrument, or the musician just starting out. Those people are far more likely to actually purchase what they are shown.

 

[2F/2F]

Value is what enough people will pay.

Will enough people pay less for the U.S. made model, because there are cheap outsourced models available? I don’t think so. If anything, the slight decreases in sales volume for the “real deal” is then made up for, and more, with price increases. The opposite of devaluation is what actually happens.

The problem is that very rarely does the quality level of the U.S. line improve once the imports are introduced. It’s actually usually the opposite. Look at G&L as a prime example. Their Tribute line marked the beginning of decades of cost cutting on the U.S. models. Now it’s hard to find a Fullerton one that’s truly well built. Meanwhile, prices have literally doubled.

Imports do not devalue the real deal. They simply push low-level and mid-level U.S. made guitars in to being a thing of the past, and give the parent company the ability to lean on a reliable source of profit at better margins than their U.S. line. IME, that can cause them to let off the gas in their domestic instruments…while also marketing them as higher level, and thus worth more.

The introduction of an import line is a sign of a change in business philosophy in a company, more than anything else. They come along when a company pretty much decides that it’s too hard to craft decent quality instruments for an affordable price domestically.

 

[Topkat13]

Does Subway devalue a high end steakhouse?

 

[gln1955]

Why is it nuts when the odds of selling it to you are low?

If I'm the store owner, and you come in to play a $2000 bass that I have in stock, I already have $1600 into that. You and 20 other guys come in to kick tires with Sweetwater in mind, scratch the thing up, say "oh, yeah, it's nice" and walk away to buy something that was never on a sales floor from an online dealer, and at the end of a few months I have a demo unit that I might eventually be able to sell for 10% off.

So that's a retail price of $1800 for something that cost me $1600 plus the time of sales staff catering to 21 people who didn't have any real interest in purchasing the thing from us to begin with. I'm already in negative territory here before that box is even opened to put it on the sales floor.

Nope, it's a lot more sensible for the store owner to cater to people coming in for lower-ticket items - moms and dads looking to by their kids first instrument, or the musician just starting out. Those people are far more likely to actually purchase what they are shown.

All this and realistically, how many models of US Fenders, Music Man, Gibson, Spector, etc are there? No local shops can have even a fraction of them in stock, so when a customer is dishing out well over $1,000 and wants a specific model and color, no brick and mortar shop can accommodate that. So yeah, they may try out something similar in a shop, then buy what they really want online. It's not even a matter of saving a few bucks. It's getting what you want. There is no way to compete with that.

 

[Bass Viking]

After the launch of Sterling by Music Man (SBMM), I no longer see any actual American Music Man basses in stores these days and it got me thinking: D


MTD Kingston

I’m pretty sure as recently as last year my local Long & McQuade was stocking USA Musicman. Other than that the only American instruments in stock are Fenders.

I just got an MTD Kingston. I wish they were available in local shops. I had to order from Bass Central.

 

[Bass Viking]

Does Subway devalue a high end steakhouse?

The quality gap between domestics and imports is shrinking.

 

[Slevage]

No

 

[frankie5string]

Then why do you never see the domestic models in the store anymore? Is it just that they don't move as many, so they are always special order? The retailers are not willing to stock the higher price models because it more initial layout for them?

Because the store owner has made the decision not to carry them. All of the major music stores around here carry "American" (domestic?) instruments - FAR more imports sell, though.

 

[LBS-bass]

All this and realistically, how many models of US Fenders, Music Man, Gibson, Spector, etc are there? No local shops can have even a fraction of them in stock, so when a customer is dishing out well over $1,000 and wants a specific model and color, no brick and mortar shop can accommodate that. So yeah, they may try out something similar in a shop, then buy what they really want online. It's not even a matter of saving a few bucks. It's getting what you want. There is no way to compete with that.

Absolutely.

We had customers - good customers - that we'd bend over backwards to accommodate. Someone would call asking if we were going to stock whatever great thing they'd seen or heard about from the latest NAMM show, and because we valued their business, we'd order some of that stuff in. And even then, making the actual sale was a crap shoot.

I've told the story here before about the customer (not such a valued one in this case) who begged me to open a box and demo a keyboard that I had a waiting list for. We had no intention of setting a demo model out because these things were flying out of the warehouse as fast as we could get them in on deposits.

Because he gave me every indication that he was serious, I pulled the first one off the truck on the next delivery before anyone else could get their hands on it, called him in, and set it up for him. After I spent more than an hour with him, he said he'd buy it - but he wanted a discount because it was an open box. A box that I had opened IN FRONT OF HIM ON THAT SAME DAY IN ORDER TO CATER TO HIS NEED TO DEMO THIS THING THAT I COULD'VE SOLD TO A HALF DOZEN OTHER PEOPLE OVER THE PHONE.

I told that guy to go pound sand because a demo has more value than that - I can make more sales if I have that demo on the floor, so I left it there. Eventually you offer it up at a discount, but not until you've used it to generate sales interest for a sufficient amount of time.

I don't know if he ever actually bought anything or not. But that's the kind of crap we dealt with.

 

[frankie5string]

I’m pretty sure as recently as last year my local Long & McQuade was stocking USA Musicman. Other than that the only American instruments in stock are Fenders.

I just got an MTD Kingston. I wish they were available in local shops. I had to order from Bass Central.

I could be wrong, but back years ago when I bought my Kingston 6, they were distributed in Canada by Yorkville/Gibson. If that company doesn't carry them anymore, then I guess Jam Industries would have to pick up the slack and maybe they didn't see the value.

 

[LBS-bass]

The quality gap between domestics and imports is shrinking.

Yeah, subway and a steakhouse are selling radically different products.

 

[frankie5string]

Yeah, subway and a steakhouse are selling radically different products.

People on a forum that talks about steakhouses don't generally visit a Subway for a steak sandwich... ;-)

 

[g-dude]

A friend of mine said he just bought a new Cadillac and asked me if I wanted to go for a ride in it. I said sure!

He pulled up in one of these.
I asked him, where is your new Cadillac?

We rented these once - it was 1988 and we were in the process of either house hunting or moving. I forget which exactly.

What I do remember is seats that felt every bit as luxurious as a Chevette. The car was a total turd.

 

[6-3-2]

I think it's basically the General Motors philosophy, where you sell someone a Chevy but hook them on the idea of someday getting the Cadillac.

As a Detroiter through and through, this may have been the model, but it isn't now. The average price of a new car is $48k and they're almost entirely SUVs. It was near that level even before the pandemic. Compared to a sedan with the same features, SUVs cost $8-10k more. Note, sedans cost about the same to construct and often share many components with SUVs. The Big 3 are even phasing out sedans, so there isn't even an entry-level option anymore. It's more like "if you wanna play, you better buy this $3k J-bass or go home." Thank goodness the bass world isn't going this way.

 

[Bass Viking]

Absolutely.

We had customers - good customers - that we'd bend over backwards to accommodate. Someone would call asking if we were going to stock whatever great thing they'd seen or heard about from the latest NAMM show, and because we valued their business, we'd order some of that stuff in. And even then, making the actual sale was a crap shoot.

I've told the story here before about the customer (not such a valued one in this case) who begged me to open a box and demo a keyboard that I had a waiting list for. We had no intention of setting a demo model out because these things were flying out of the warehouse as fast as we could get them in on deposits.

Because he gave me every indication that he was serious, I pulled the first one off the truck on the next delivery before anyone else could get their hands on it, set it up for him and called him in. After I spent more than an hour with him, he said he'd buy it - but he wanted a discount because it was an open box. A box that I had opened IN FRONT OF HIM ON THAT SAME DAY IN ORDER TO CATER TO HIS NEED TO DEMO THIS THING THAT I COULD'VE SOLD TO A HALF DOZEN OTHER PEOPLE OVER THE PHONE.

I told that guy to go pound sand because a demo has more value than that - I can make more sales if I have that demo on the floor, so I left it there. Eventually you offer it up at a discount, but not until you've used it to generate sales interest for a sufficient amount of time.

I don't know if he ever actually bought anything or not. But that's the kind of crap we dealt with.

I’m speechless! What a complete and utter turd of a customer!

 

[bodgiebass]

Absolutely.

We had customers - good customers - that we'd bend over backwards to accommodate. Someone would call asking if we were going to stock whatever great thing they'd seen or heard about from the latest NAMM show, and because we valued their business, we'd order some of that stuff in. And even then, making the actual sale was a crap shoot.

I've told the story here before about the customer (not such a valued one in this case) who begged me to open a box and demo a keyboard that I had a waiting list for. We had no intention of setting a demo model out because these things were flying out of the warehouse as fast as we could get them in on deposits.

Because he gave me every indication that he was serious, I pulled the first one off the truck on the next delivery before anyone else could get their hands on it, set it up for him and called him in. After I spent more than an hour with him, he said he'd buy it - but he wanted a discount because it was an open box. A box that I had opened IN FRONT OF HIM ON THAT SAME DAY IN ORDER TO CATER TO HIS NEED TO DEMO THIS THING THAT I COULD'VE SOLD TO A HALF DOZEN OTHER PEOPLE OVER THE PHONE.

I told that guy to go pound sand because a demo has more value than that - I can make more sales if I have that demo on the floor, so I left it there. Eventually you offer it up at a discount, but not until you've used it to generate sales interest for a sufficient amount of time.

I don't know if he ever actually bought anything or not. But that's the kind of crap we dealt with.

Had almost the same customer as you. They didn't want a discount though, they just wanted an unopened box. I explained that it was unopened until their demand to see it. No, they just wanted an unopened box. Sigh.

 

[LBS-bass]

I’m speechless! What a complete and utter turd of a customer!

That stunt earned him a spot on my short list which basically meant my manager dealt with him, and that was never pretty if my manager was unhappy with you.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I guess this thread is just an observation that I've wanted to look at and try a Stingray Special (5) in person, but haven't seen one. But, I am not really in the market for one, so I have proven many of your points!

Good discussion everyone!

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

Our local Long & McQuade has as big a bass section as I have ever seen, but there is very little on the high end. It's mostly entry level to intermediate (Squier, Jackson, Yamaha, Epiphone, Mexican Fenders, Ibanez).

The high end is the EHB Ibanez's, American Fenders and a couple of F-Basses. And, I know the F-Basses are there because the manager is a bassist and loves them. But then again, if I were to drop 6K+ on an F-Bass, odds are I am going to want a different finish than what they have. At that price point, it has to meet my every demand and that essentially means it would have to be custom ordered.

 

[J Wilson]

I think import models do the opposite, and I also think that's by design/intentional. By developing and building out their import lines, those companies are able to move their domestic models upmarket while also making the brand as a whole more accessible. Before SBMM and OLP, you had to shell out over a grand for a Stingray. Now you can get a Stingray from SBMM for $300-350 new. It's not the same quality as the USA, but it's a Stingray, and you have tons of options upmarket from there. Same goes with all the other brands you listed.

I'd agree with Lobster, using the import models as a way to sell down-market as a pump primer for the domestic versions, thereby keeping their guys in a job.

The real question they will not ask nor answer: WHAT IF you build exact duplicates of the domestic model (in every way, same quality wood/finish, hardware, electronics, all the same everything) . . . . and built THOSE over there, using those cost structures. THAT's when you'd see it diminish the domestic versions. What it does do, for Fender anyway, is that you wind up with close to two dozen Precision Basses in your catalog, but in most cases, save for the manufacturing address, it's the same bass in the real world.

BTW, they're all 'real'.

'Real' doesn't mean much to me. I buy Squiers and wonder why anywhere from double to five times the Squier MSRP's when you buy the same thing in a 'real' Fender is not shown or heard for the price difference.

We all make a personal calculation as to the relationship of real value vs. price. In some cases, the offshore versions can be good enough to really bend the results.