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When you take names like MTD or Dingwall, you can't compare them to Fender. You will need to compare them to Fender Custom Shop.
I do think that Fender's core market is making simple basses, that can be mass produced fairly cheap. That has been the idea from the start. Fender added MiM, MiJ, and Squier to make them more affordable and they added Fender CS to have something to offer those who want to spend more on a bass.
Dingwall or MTD sell top shelf instruments for top dollar. They are more expensive than most people are willing to pay on a single bass. Having built a reputation and a following, they most likely understood that there are limits to how many basses they can make with that amount of hand crafting, attention to detail and quality.
So what do you do when you're booked for the next 18 months, your workshop is as big as you can manage without sacrificing on quality and the requests keep coming in?
You jack up the prices until you find the sweet spot where you get as many requests as you can produce.
But now you're sitting all the way up there, with your top instruments having five figure price tags and even the lower tier instruments costing the equivalent of a used car that has a few good years still ahead.
This is a place where you can stay and enjoy your being there - I guess Alembic and Wal are doing just that, no way forward from there.
The alternative would be that you realize that your rising the prices has eliminated a big group from your potential buyers and you decide to do something against that - by introducing some sort of mass production into the process.
I do think that Fender's core market is making simple basses, that can be mass produced fairly cheap. That has been the idea from the start. Fender added MiM, MiJ, and Squier to make them more affordable and they added Fender CS to have something to offer those who want to spend more on a bass.
Dingwall or MTD sell top shelf instruments for top dollar. They are more expensive than most people are willing to pay on a single bass. Having built a reputation and a following, they most likely understood that there are limits to how many basses they can make with that amount of hand crafting, attention to detail and quality.
So what do you do when you're booked for the next 18 months, your workshop is as big as you can manage without sacrificing on quality and the requests keep coming in?
You jack up the prices until you find the sweet spot where you get as many requests as you can produce.
But now you're sitting all the way up there, with your top instruments having five figure price tags and even the lower tier instruments costing the equivalent of a used car that has a few good years still ahead.
This is a place where you can stay and enjoy your being there - I guess Alembic and Wal are doing just that, no way forward from there.
The alternative would be that you realize that your rising the prices has eliminated a big group from your potential buyers and you decide to do something against that - by introducing some sort of mass production into the process.
Or you modify them to be more what you want without the nagging feeling that for $x (different for everyone) it should already be perfect.
The fact of course is that even if a bass was specifically built for you, your tastes and desires may change over time so that something that was perfect at 29 isn’t what you want at 39.
Over six decades the US guitar market shifted from 100% American made to largely Asian imports.
1960s: cheap, low quality Japanese and Italian imports arrive due to the surge of guitar sales caused by the Beatles
1970s: A few US companies start importing Japanese made guitars...Gibson turns Epiphone into an import line, Martin starts Sigma, Guild starts Madeira. Ibanez starts offering high quality MIJ copies of Gibsons, Fenders, Rickenbackers, Martins, etc. Late in the decade Hondo starts bringing in Korean copies but loads them with US DiMarzio pickups. Peavey brings out the T60 and T40, undercutting Fender and Gibson prices by more than 50% but still 100% made in USA. Ovation starts the MIJ Applause series. Companies like DiMarzio, Mighty Mite, Schecter, etc. start selling parts for "hot rodding" guitars but also making it easy for foreign builders to get high quality pickups, bridges, tuners, etc.
1980s: Success of Hondo opens up market for other importers of Korean instruments (Memphis, Cort, etc.). Fender starts making guitars in Japan for the Asian and European market. Then they bring them to the USA under the Squier name. They also start making some amps in Japan (Sidekicks, etc.). Gibson revives Epiphone with high quality Les Pauls. Gretsch is the first US comapny to go completely overseas. Fernandes and Tokai start selling high quality copies of Gibsons, Fenders and even Alembics! Other quality Japanese brands start arriving like Yamaha, Aria, Kawai, etc. A few brands like Washburn and Hohner are revived under new owners and import Japanese or Korean guitars. Steinberger starts lawsuits against Japanese copies of their bridges then offers licensing deals to Hohner and Cort. Ibanez pivots from making copies to their own designs, including the very successful Soundgear basses. Mid-decade CBS sells Fender, closes the Fullerton plant and all instruments except the Vintage Reissue series are made in Japan. No US made Fender basses until the 1990s. Boutique builders Ken Smith and B.C. Rich start import lines. Seymour Duncan, EMG and Bartolini start licensing Asian versions of their pickups. Ironically, while US EMGs ahadd all been active the Asian versions were all passive.
1990s: Fender now has factories in Mexico and starts importing Squiers from Korea as well as Japan. Other import lines start switching to Korean suppliers to save money. Danelectro is revived. Hofner starts selling Asian made Beatle basses. Towards the end of the decade under extreme market pressure, Peavey starts moving some guitar and amp production to Asia. OLP imports licensed copies of Music Man guitars from China. Gibson starts up Music Yo as an Internet dealer to sell Korean versions of Steinbergers, Kramers and Tobias.
2000s to today: Ampeg moves all amp production to Vietnam, then gets bought by Yamaha. Guitar manufacturing shifts from Korea to China and then Indonesia. More brands are revived with Asian guitars and amps: Supro, Acoustic, D'angelico. Guild and Ovation move completely to imports. GK starts a new line of MB combos made in China, but after problems, they bring production back to the US for the MB-II series at higher prices. Gibson and Fender start shutting down many of the brands that they had acquired...SWR, GenzBenz, Ovation, Kramer, Tobias, Oberheim. Peavey acquires Trace Elliot. Sadowsky starts importing basses from Japan, then sells the brand to Warwick who starts making them in China.
The thread running through all of this is pricing. Imports were necessary to combat rising costs of US manufacturing.
1960s: cheap, low quality Japanese and Italian imports arrive due to the surge of guitar sales caused by the Beatles
1970s: A few US companies start importing Japanese made guitars...Gibson turns Epiphone into an import line, Martin starts Sigma, Guild starts Madeira. Ibanez starts offering high quality MIJ copies of Gibsons, Fenders, Rickenbackers, Martins, etc. Late in the decade Hondo starts bringing in Korean copies but loads them with US DiMarzio pickups. Peavey brings out the T60 and T40, undercutting Fender and Gibson prices by more than 50% but still 100% made in USA. Ovation starts the MIJ Applause series. Companies like DiMarzio, Mighty Mite, Schecter, etc. start selling parts for "hot rodding" guitars but also making it easy for foreign builders to get high quality pickups, bridges, tuners, etc.
1980s: Success of Hondo opens up market for other importers of Korean instruments (Memphis, Cort, etc.). Fender starts making guitars in Japan for the Asian and European market. Then they bring them to the USA under the Squier name. They also start making some amps in Japan (Sidekicks, etc.). Gibson revives Epiphone with high quality Les Pauls. Gretsch is the first US comapny to go completely overseas. Fernandes and Tokai start selling high quality copies of Gibsons, Fenders and even Alembics! Other quality Japanese brands start arriving like Yamaha, Aria, Kawai, etc. A few brands like Washburn and Hohner are revived under new owners and import Japanese or Korean guitars. Steinberger starts lawsuits against Japanese copies of their bridges then offers licensing deals to Hohner and Cort. Ibanez pivots from making copies to their own designs, including the very successful Soundgear basses. Mid-decade CBS sells Fender, closes the Fullerton plant and all instruments except the Vintage Reissue series are made in Japan. No US made Fender basses until the 1990s. Boutique builders Ken Smith and B.C. Rich start import lines. Seymour Duncan, EMG and Bartolini start licensing Asian versions of their pickups. Ironically, while US EMGs ahadd all been active the Asian versions were all passive.
1990s: Fender now has factories in Mexico and starts importing Squiers from Korea as well as Japan. Other import lines start switching to Korean suppliers to save money. Danelectro is revived. Hofner starts selling Asian made Beatle basses. Towards the end of the decade under extreme market pressure, Peavey starts moving some guitar and amp production to Asia. OLP imports licensed copies of Music Man guitars from China. Gibson starts up Music Yo as an Internet dealer to sell Korean versions of Steinbergers, Kramers and Tobias.
2000s to today: Ampeg moves all amp production to Vietnam, then gets bought by Yamaha. Guitar manufacturing shifts from Korea to China and then Indonesia. More brands are revived with Asian guitars and amps: Supro, Acoustic, D'angelico. Guild and Ovation move completely to imports. GK starts a new line of MB combos made in China, but after problems, they bring production back to the US for the MB-II series at higher prices. Gibson and Fender start shutting down many of the brands that they had acquired...SWR, GenzBenz, Ovation, Kramer, Tobias, Oberheim. Peavey acquires Trace Elliot. Sadowsky starts importing basses from Japan, then sells the brand to Warwick who starts making them in China.
The thread running through all of this is pricing. Imports were necessary to combat rising costs of US manufacturing.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
No. The crowd that can/will always buy the higher priced domestic model and who have the funds to do so.... likely will. Just like how luxury goods kept selling unabated during the pandemic and recent recession. The people who don't have to worry about money will keep spending it on premium items. Thankfully, for musical instruments, the gap has closed between 'premium' and 'workingman' instruments. The main issue (in a positive sense) is that the quality of the budget models has risen greatly. I'm perfectly fine with my Lakland Skylines, my Squier Classic Vibes, and my Sterling by MM 'Ray. They - on a case by case basis - play as good or better than some of the USA-made counterparts once they're set up and tweaked.
As far as profits vs. devaluing the domestically-produced instrument is concerned:
I vaguely remember hearing that Lakland didn't start turning a profit (or breaking even) until they launched the Skylines. Conversely, Sterling Ball said he lost money on every single USA-made MusicMan SUB bass produced in the USA factory back in the mid-2000s... and those basses are often as highly sought after as other MM basses. I think they retailed for $700-800 if memory serves. You essentially got a StingRay Classic w/slab body and American-made 2-band preamp, built and finished alongside other basses costing $1,200 and up. If you could deal with the matte paint and painted neck.... the value was clear.
As far as profits vs. devaluing the domestically-produced instrument is concerned:
I vaguely remember hearing that Lakland didn't start turning a profit (or breaking even) until they launched the Skylines. Conversely, Sterling Ball said he lost money on every single USA-made MusicMan SUB bass produced in the USA factory back in the mid-2000s... and those basses are often as highly sought after as other MM basses. I think they retailed for $700-800 if memory serves. You essentially got a StingRay Classic w/slab body and American-made 2-band preamp, built and finished alongside other basses costing $1,200 and up. If you could deal with the matte paint and painted neck.... the value was clear.
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long and mcquade used to have tons of german Warwicks, Modulus basses (Moduli), and Music man, back in 2000, now it is fender, squier, ibanez etc. nothing very exiting, not even G&L tribute.
I think it's just what sells more, as the store has been expanding more and more buying smaller stores.
I think it's just what sells more, as the store has been expanding more and more buying smaller stores.
Especially EBMM, I'd say that's not really true. I see at least 3-4 USA Stingrays when I go into Guitar Center. Sure there are more basses on the cheaper end, but it probably lines up with % of actual sales. LIke if only 10% of the basses on the wall are high end, they probably know that is about the % of their normal high end sales. Plus, with 6 string guitars, there's no shortage of high end instruments in stores. They must be able to move them or they wouldn't be there. And vice versa, they can't stock tons of high end Sadowsky, Warwick and Fodera if they can't move that type of inventory at a reasonable rate.
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It’s a stepping stone, the idea being that one starts out with the lesser import model and you work your way into the higher priced models. Ken Smith & Sadowsky now have similar lines as well.
It’s about inventory turnover. If stuff is moving they can buy high end stuff knowing it will move quickly. If it’s not moving, that’s money literally hanging on the wall.
It’s no coincidence too that many bass specialty stores have closed. I live in San Antonio and I remember in the 90s there was a local store that carried Ken Smith basses. You could go in there and they had 2-3 Smiths. It was a different time…
^^This^^
If the imports are 1/3-1/10 the quality (which in most cases they aren't), I don't see how that would cause issues with the sales of the originals, but if the quality gets close to the domestic models, there is less reason to buy domestic. That seems to be happening. For instance, you see a lot of posts here about how a Squier bass plays and sounds better than it's Fender counterpart. The same with the Sterlings and the MM, as well as others.
Up until about 2012 I had owned about a dozen Fender basses. Once the Classic Vibe Squiers came out I bought several and A/B’d them against my US Fenders. IMO the CV Squiers felt and sounded excellent, and I even preferred the tone to what I was getting out of the Fenders.
I’ve got 3 CV Squiers and have no plans to buy any Fenders. The Squiers give me what I’m looking for. My Squiers are all CIC/Grand Reward, which might make a difference.
But I also realize that a lot of players may start out with an import line and then move to the domestically produced version. I’d be curious to see profit margins on the import vs domestic instruments from some of these companies. My guess is the import lines are generating good profits on their own, and aren’t solely there to act as a “gateway” instrument.
I’ve got 3 CV Squiers and have no plans to buy any Fenders. The Squiers give me what I’m looking for. My Squiers are all CIC/Grand Reward, which might make a difference.
But I also realize that a lot of players may start out with an import line and then move to the domestically produced version. I’d be curious to see profit margins on the import vs domestic instruments from some of these companies. My guess is the import lines are generating good profits on their own, and aren’t solely there to act as a “gateway” instrument.
And pretty smart move actually. Before you can haggle on a price of a USA made Fender/EBMM or if it has been on the store too long they have to demo price. Now the stores are getting the full markup if they special order it for you.
Not 1 but 2 F Basses! That's not bad, around here the only way you'd see one is if it was used. You're right, at $6,000 you want exactly what you want. Some years ago, a local store had an early F Bass but didn't quite know what it was. They advertised it as an Italian-made Furlanetto Bass.
I've seen Rickenbackers at L&M but they seem to sell quickly.
You can’t say that !! You know the really expensive ‘real thing’ basses has supernatural wood, fret material from the deepest mines in Switzerland, assembled by billionaires, shipped to stores in AMD Mercedes Benz!!
Not 1 but 2 F Basses! That's not bad, around here the only way you'd see one is if it was used. You're right, at $6,000 you want exactly what you want. Some years ago, a local store had an early F Bass but didn't quite know what it was. They advertised it as an Italian-made Furlanetto Bass.
I've seen Rickenbackers at L&M but they seem to sell quickly.
I've seen a few Fodera standards at L&Ms in Toronto. It's not unusual. Also keep in mind that $6000 F-Bass in L&M may actually cost you $8000 if you directly spec and build it from F-Bass... Pretty funny about the "Italian made" thing - they forgot "in Hamilton" ...
I recall the Markham store having some high end basses at one time.
I guess if you're in the $6,000 region what's a couple more thousand $$?
But you do read stories (especially on here) where people walk into a store and try a bass that they were not intending to buy and it just spoke to them.
I have gone to music stores and tried basses out with no intention to buy, but in having done so, it planted the seed and I bought one later on.
The problem with the new "we can order it for you" business model on higher end stuff is that I think to myself, "well so can I". These days, I often know the products better than the staff and having done my research before I get to the retailer, they don't have to make the sale as I have already done that work for them. And, with my experience I can predict very well if a bass will work for me.
When you go to the music shop and see that $4000 name brand instrument that your hero plays and right next to it is the lesser light of the budget brand that looks identical, you are more likely to purchase the economical version of the real McCoy. Most players can't reasonably afford a high-end instrument right off the bat. They play the budget model until they can afford the real thing. Psyched, they get to the music shop and claim their dream bass, only to get it home and realize it's about the same as (or in some cases, worse) than the one they already have. $3000 down the drain! No problem. Put it in the classifieds. There is some other player just dreaming of getting that same bass as their hero plays... Ad infinitum.
The smart move is to make some differences on the imports from the flagship models so that labour is not the only difference.
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