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do we still need

so something i've been pondering for a while on here and i'm pretty young 33 here but...

i've seen a lot of nah you need 5000 watt tube rig for a bar gig with a drummer and x or xx guitars

real talk i was in a well known seattle punk band for a year on keys and the bass player had a 100W SWR 115 combo in a 2 git, drummer, 3 vox, and me on keys lol so with todays tech and everything being mic'd FOH i/anyone should be fine with a 350W head and 2x10 or am i just the dumb kid and need to get off ya lawn? enlighten me
 
I've been gigging a 1x12 markbass 300 watt combo for years. In bar bands, big stages, little stages, and in between. It's almost always run DI into FOH. For small gigs it can carry the room, but mostly it's a stage monitor for the bass and FOH is pushing bass out to the audience.

20230520_212014.jpg
 
How long is a piece of string?
Recently I've seen every band running full p.a but not sounding great. Running ears, but no FOH soundman which is kind of odd.

For me, I always run backline and work back from there. I'll do an acoustic soundcheck and then run monitors for vocals. No one is running anything bar vox tops for most smaller type rooms.
I'll run ears if the monitoring is sorted, but gtrs are turning up with 40w combos or modellers/cabs so mostly it is a set up issue which takes more time and no one really needs. So i take rigs from 400w of amp power to 800w but I know where that will work with what guys.
No one is playing at ear blasting volume but it can get punchy.

Observation of late. Bass players running 210 cabs into FOH. No one is hearing any definition or nuance from the bass. Its there, but thats about it.
Some players only need to go that far and if that's the case, ok, but I don't put in my hours to be a soft underbelly indistinct sound so I'd say, sort yourself out to what you want to achieve and ignore 90% of stuff people says is ok. Ok for them might not be ok for you.
350w gets you in the game..how well you want to do in it is for you to call.
 
People can run whatever rig makes them happy. That being said, the #1 complaint I hear from those mixing FOH is that the amps are too loud to get a decent mix. Asking folks (primarily guitaists) to turn down is often a losing battle for them, just like it is for their bandmates. I sure enjoy carrying my light 112 around after dealing with a 410 for years, but to each their own.
 
. . . . i was in a well known seattle punk band for a year on keys and the bass player had a 100W SWR 115 combo in a 2 git, drummer, 3 vox, and me on keys lol so with todays tech and everything being mic'd FOH i/anyone should be fine with a 350W head and 2x10 or am i just the dumb kid and need to get off ya lawn? enlighten me

IMO the number of watts you need for bass is "enough plus an amount for headroom". Too many watts is never a problem, not enough watts is always a problem.

If you are going through FOH then all amp advice is moot.Without FOH you need to carry the room and you need to cover every eventuality.

Yesterday I had FOH so I used my regular 700 watt amp with the master on 9 o'clock, and 1 cab. The day before, no FOH and a noisy band, the master was on 12 o'clock, and I used both cabs.
 
I went low powered tube 11 years ago and have gigged steadily with 50 watt and 100 watt tube amps pushing 1 1x15, 2 1x15, or 1 4x10 depending on size of stage, and playing everything from dive bars to festivals and have never been underpowered in any situation. I carry a 250 watt micro head in my gig bag just in case but it's never seen the light of day. Regarding size/weight, even at 70 years old the last thing I think of is my convenience, my primary concern is my sound.
My experience has been exactly as you said - when you get to even medium sized stages there is FOH support, so this obsession over high power has always puzzled me . 1000 watts? Then again nothing is more boring to me than a clean solid state bass sound, but that is strictly my personal preference. I'd never tell anyone who wants that they're wrong.
 
There are so many factors in play here.... I'm old. And, old school- although, I was wiring in HF drivers in my bass cabs long before SWR started doing that.. that said, I used to carry an SVT head on occasion- on the N.Y. City subway- no hand truck or dolly- or anything. Did I also say I was nuts when I was in my early 20's. Yeah. But I knew no one would try to steal it! lol! I remember in the time before the nightmare of Rap and hip-hop suckled and nurtured kids grew up to be sound people, and went mad with overpowered subwoofer kick drums at every gig, concert, and even rehearsals. I remember when stage mixing was the order of the day. Guitarist has a Deluxe, small drum set, in a small room? You- A B-15, B-25, Fender Bassman, Kustom 200 or other relatively (by today's standards) lower wattage amp with good speakers would work well. Add another guitar, maybe a Twin Reverb, and a keyboard player with a Rhodes, a JC 120 or another Twin- and maybe a half stack - and you went out and got a V-4B, Showman, SVT, Acoustic 360, 370 or Sunn with a couple of JBL's. PA stuff was pretty awful- the ubiquitous Shure Vocal Master, with its pants tearing 'L' shaped scar on your calf -producing aluminum trim pieces, would be howling along at a hundred distorted solid state watts of feedback bummer.
Fast forward a little into the late 70's, and the PA with a power amp/ mixer, and high quality speaker cabs with bi-amp capabilities, improved things greatly. Again, the fast forward- then, Subs became more and more common.
"Please, Mister Soundman, do not bury the bass under the kick, o.k.?"
Soundman hates that you even addressed him- and not only buries you in the house, the kick is so loud, and deep, you can't hear your amp onstage either.
So where are we now? Combos, or no amps at all onstage. I was in a band where the bandleader who claimed to love bass guitar, denied me an amp onstage. Instead, mixed the entire band, with drums, synth, keys, guitar and all vocals.. and me, through two Mackie two 15/horn PA cabs, and one Mackie sub. The band was really good, and a lot of my friends came to see us. Quite a few bass players. All of them said the same thing. " I had trouble hearing you" -or, "I couldn't hear the bass at all"
Bandleader, "I had you pumpin' out there" Yeah, sure you did. THAT is the mindset now- we are not often in a self-mixing situation anymore. I've been told a small combo is all I needed, and ended up having a really unpleasant gig experience. Frankly, I literally gave up asking the sound people for anything other than a DI line to my Zoom B-3, and where is my specific Aviom, or Power Play mixer. If I have to bring an amp- I'll bring a pretty powerful head that'll run at 2 ohms, and two cabs. I'll set it all up, and if I don't need both, one cab will do, and one stays in the trunk of my old Caddy.
Reminds me of Dickens' line- "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" Seems as bass players, we have the BEST times- more choices and options now, than ever. BUT, the ultimate sound we project, is often completely out of our control... the worst of times... the irony.
 
Having pa reinforcement because you want the audience to be able to enjoy your music is the most un-punk thing I've ever heard! You sure it's not a polka band?
Just kidding, you make a good point. I feel like most threads about being heard in a live mix end up a discussion of eq or more cabs rather than watts. Most folks are willing to trade watts for the convenience of lighter gear, but even the smallest heads (except low power tube heads) start at 200w.
 
"do we still need"

I played this rig last night, small stage, figured it was the right rig to bring... and it was.

It worked great, totally did the job, and I can imagine anyone who uses a similar rig (or even smaller) indoors to confidently state that they never "need" more, and they'd be correct.
upload_2023-10-29_10-50-16.jpeg


But it didn't quite feel like this indoor rig, even at the same volume.
upload_2023-10-29_10-52-42.jpeg
 
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There are so many factors in play here.... I'm old. And, old school- although, I was wiring in HF drivers in my bass cabs long before SWR started doing that.. that said, I used to carry an SVT head on occasion- on the N.Y. City subway- no hand truck or dolly- or anything. Did I also say I was nuts when I was in my early 20's. Yeah. But I knew no one would try to steal it! lol! I remember in the time before the nightmare of Rap and hip-hop suckled and nurtured kids grew up to be sound people, and went mad with overpowered subwoofer kick drums at every gig, concert, and even rehearsals. I remember when stage mixing was the order of the day. Guitarist has a Deluxe, small drum set, in a small room? You- A B-15, B-25, Fender Bassman, Kustom 200 or other relatively (by today's standards) lower wattage amp with good speakers would work well. Add another guitar, maybe a Twin Reverb, and a keyboard player with a Rhodes, a JC 120 or another Twin- and maybe a half stack - and you went out and got a V-4B, Showman, SVT, Acoustic 360, 370 or Sunn with a couple of JBL's. PA stuff was pretty awful- the ubiquitous Shure Vocal Master, with its pants tearing 'L' shaped scar on your calf -producing aluminum trim pieces, would be howling along at a hundred distorted solid state watts of feedback bummer.
Fast forward a little into the late 70's, and the PA with a power amp/ mixer, and high quality speaker cabs with bi-amp capabilities, improved things greatly. Again, the fast forward- then, Subs became more and more common.
"Please, Mister Soundman, do not bury the bass under the kick, o.k.?"
Soundman hates that you even addressed him- and not only buries you in the house, the kick is so loud, and deep, you can't hear your amp onstage either.
So where are we now? Combos, or no amps at all onstage. I was in a band where the bandleader who claimed to love bass guitar, denied me an amp onstage. Instead, mixed the entire band, with drums, synth, keys, guitar and all vocals.. and me, through two Mackie two 15/horn PA cabs, and one Mackie sub. The band was really good, and a lot of my friends came to see us. Quite a few bass players. All of them said the same thing. " I had trouble hearing you" -or, "I couldn't hear the bass at all"
Bandleader, "I had you pumpin' out there" Yeah, sure you did. THAT is the mindset now- we are not often in a self-mixing situation anymore. I've been told a small combo is all I needed, and ended up having a really unpleasant gig experience. Frankly, I literally gave up asking the sound people for anything other than a DI line to my Zoom B-3, and where is my specific Aviom, or Power Play mixer. If I have to bring an amp- I'll bring a pretty powerful head that'll run at 2 ohms, and two cabs. I'll set it all up, and if I don't need both, one cab will do, and one stays in the trunk of my old Caddy.
Reminds me of Dickens' line- "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" Seems as bass players, we have the BEST times- more choices and options now, than ever. BUT, the ultimate sound we project, is often completely out of our control... the worst of times... the irony.

Bro, I'd love to read your posts, but if you can't make paragraphs with spaces, it's not worth it.
 
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Your choice. It's just my opinion, from a long time playing and working as a bassist.

Precisely WHERE, did I not make 'spaces?" I proofread, and make sure I've formed sentences correctly, and didn't use profanity. There are commas, periods, and new paragraphs.. if I omit something, well, my bad.
So, please, educate me (space) point out my errors and I'll edit.
 
Bro, I'd love to read your posts, but if you can't make paragraphs with spaces, it's not worth it.



Precisely WHERE, did I not make 'spaces?" I proofread, and make sure I've formed sentences correctly, and didn't use profanity. There are commas, periods, and new paragraphs.. if I omit something, well, my bad.
So, please, educate me (space) point out my errors and I'll edit.