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Does a reverse headstock tighten up the low end?

#41
rtav said:
OK - my bad. So my high tension Lo Riders haven't domnstrated any problems with B - so, what makes a "floppy B" string?
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The stiffness - or lack of stiffness - in the structure of the bass is the main thing.

I think needed stiffness for a good 5 string bass is a fair bit higher than for a good 4. Just having a marginally wider neck, by itself, often doesn't add enough structural stiffness to allow a low B string to articulate well. That said, there certainly are good low Bs out there on plain maple necks, but they're most often on necks that are more carefully selected and seasoned than high quantity mass-produced instruments. And even with a cheap instrument you sometimes just get lucky with a hunk of maple that's a bit on the high side of typical stiffness range.

Also, I think that it's been assumed since the popularization of a low B string that the proper ballpark gauge should follow the traditional increment of about .02" between strings, i.e. since a typical string set is .100-.080-.060-.040, a B string should be around .120; I think that's just not the case. It depends on the specific brand and model of string, since there's so many flavors of core size versus wrap size, number of wraps, etc. but I tend to think that a better starting point is about .035 bigger than your E string.
 
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#43
On my DB I reverse the E and A strings to make the length from but to tuning peg longer on my E string. I hear a clear difference but that's because it's a stronger connection through more of the instrument and enhances the low end acoustically (not noticeable through an amp). A lot of the sound of that instrument comes from the scroll when playing open strings because of this connection. In an acoustic instrument the vibrations of the whole instrument matter not just the string.

If there's an effect on BG by doing this I'd assume it's limited to the acoustic sound. It MIGHT enhance the tone of an ABG a bit though.
 
#44
I may be mistaken, but I believe Gary Willis is an advocate of the getting the B and E tuners farther up the headstock, as he felt this added length/tension helped make a nice sounding/feeling B string on 34" neck. Of course to someone else, one of his basses may feel no different in response to any other player, so maybe it's a psychological thing?
 
#45
rtav said:
Thanks. So it's a perceived lack of stiffness in the B string. I didn't know there was such a thing, or that it was such a common problem among many.

Carry on - back to topic!
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No actually, I was referring to the stiffness of the bass itself. Sure, the string makes a difference too, but there are some basses that don't have a very good B string no matter what brand/model/gauge you use. The string is often muddy, lacking in pitch definition, and typically sounds out-of-place in comparison with the other strings on the bass.

I've found that I can really feel the neck vibrate more than usual on basses with poor B strings. On the other hand, basses with the most solid sounding B strings tend to feel very solid, very little vibration felt in the neck. I've got a very old Warmoth neck from the late '80s or early '90s - they called it the "Real Big 5". It's a 5 piece neck, maple with two very thick bubinga stringers that are tapered, about .25" at the head stock to about .625" at the heel, and it has two truss rods. I did some custom work to it so it's now a 36" scale. Low B string is perfect, clear, solid, feels just like an E string. This neck has so little vibration when you're playing that it feels practically like it's made of stone
 
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#46
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#47
nofrets5 said:
I may be mistaken, but I believe Gary Willis is an advocate of the getting the B and E tuners farther up the headstock, as he felt this added length/tension helped make a nice sounding/feeling B string on 34" neck. Of course to someone else, one of his basses may feel no different in response to any other player, so maybe it's a psychological thing?
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The feel may change slightly- they may possibly feel more elastic- but they will not have more tension. That was unfortunately published in his 101 Bass Tips book years back, and it's just not true.
 
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#48
BruceWane said:
The stiffness - or lack of stiffness - in the structure of the bass is the main thing.

I think needed stiffness for a good 5 string bass is a fair bit higher than for a good 4. Just having a marginally wider neck, by itself, often doesn't add enough structural stiffness to allow a low B string to articulate well. That said, there certainly are good low Bs out there on plain maple necks, but they're most often on necks that are more carefully selected and seasoned than high quantity mass-produced instruments. And even with a cheap instrument you sometimes just get lucky with a hunk of maple that's a bit on the high side of typical stiffness range.

Also, I think that it's been assumed since the popularization of a low B string that the proper ballpark gauge should follow the traditional increment of about .02" between strings, i.e. since a typical string set is .100-.080-.060-.040, a B string should be around .120; I think that's just not the case. It depends on the specific brand and model of string, since there's so many flavors of core size versus wrap size, number of wraps, etc. but I tend to think that a better starting point is about .035 bigger than your E string.
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I agree on all points. And thank you for clarifying between stiffness and tension.
 
#50
nofrets5 said:
I may be mistaken, but I believe Gary Willis is an advocate of the getting the B and E tuners farther up the headstock, as he felt this added length/tension helped make a nice sounding/feeling B string on 34" neck. Of course to someone else, one of his basses may feel no different in response to any other player, so maybe it's a psychological thing?
Click to expand...

Added length beyond the nut - or beyond the bridge saddle - can affect the feel of the string if the string is able to freely move over/through the nut and/or bridge. But it doesn't raise (or lower) the base tension of the string.
Bryan R. Tyler said:
The feel may change slightly- they may possibly feel more elastic- but they will not have more tension. That was unfortunately published in his 101 Bass Tips book years back, and it's just not true.
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Yeah, if the string can move freely through the nut and/or over the bridge saddle, then extra length in these areas can change the feel of the string, but if anything it'll make them feel more springy and easier to bend because there's more string available to be stretched. Basically, it's like the difference between stretching a 5" rubber band by 4" and stretching a 10" rubber band by 4" - the longer band is going to be much easier to stretch.

But this additional string length beyond the nut or bridge saddle doesn't come into play until you're bending the string.

Also, in MattZilla's example of a guitar with a whammy versus a guitar with a hardtail, you're comparing a solidly anchored string against one that's essentially anchored to a set of springs; of course the string that's mounted to a spring is going to give a lot easier when you pull on it.
 
#52
BruceWane said:
But this additional string length beyond the nut or bridge saddle doesn't come into play until you're bending the string.
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And even then, the length beyond the nut really only (maybe) comes into play when bending an open string; the moment you fret a string, you're basically making a locking nut that negates what's behind it.
 
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#53
It started as a tone experiment after I noticed that all of my trem guitars sounded better without the arm, then that of three fr styles (each of which i had two or more examples and swapped them around evenly) one model sounded distinctly less deadening (ofr), figured "what the heck, I've got other fr guitars and this conveniently sized auto bearing race just cluttering up my shelf". It did sound a miniscule amount more solid and alive, but I kept it as my sole hardtail guitar for a while primarily because it stayed in tune better than any stock ht that I'd ever seen. Triple locked, it would only go out of tune after a new weather system swept through, and then it'd only need a tweak on the truss to be back in tune. It got sold only because I'd gotten an sg that stays in tune through beating for at least a few hours, sounds nearly as good, and is significantly better in every other way.
 
#54
SanDiegoHarry said:
That's to make putting the strings on easier...
And you could easily put the strings with the B on the bottom peg.
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I've had two basses with extended B headstocks, and one of the two benefits was that when stringing. The thick part of the string wrap will often wind onto the winding post on the tuners closest to the nut; it's easier to have the A string winding wrap onto the post than the B string winding.

The other benefit was in that you could use a Hipshot Xtender on a string more useful than the B string.
 
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#55
MattZilla said:
It started as a tone experiment after I noticed that all of my trem guitars sounded better without the arm, then that of three fr styles (each of which i had two or more examples and swapped them around evenly) one model sounded distinctly less deadening (ofr), figured "what the heck, I've got other fr guitars and this conveniently sized auto bearing race just cluttering up my shelf". It did sound a miniscule amount more solid and alive, but I kept it as my sole hardtail guitar for a while primarily because it stayed in tune better than any stock ht that I'd ever seen. Triple locked, it would only go out of tune after a new weather system swept through, and then it'd only need a tweak on the truss to be back in tune. It got sold only because I'd gotten an sg that stays in tune through beating for at least a few hours, sounds nearly as good, and is significantly better in every other way.
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Yeah, full-floating whammy bars are cool if you're Steve Vai, but I think the best real world set up for guitars is to set up the vibrato so it's dive only, and use locking tuners (Sperzels, etc.) along with a graphite nut. That way you've got the tone of a hard tail when you want it, some vibrato and dive-bombs if you want them, and tuning stability without the hassle of a locking nut.

Your locked-Floyd guitars felt stiffer than your friends unlocked whammy guitar because when you pull on a string, his bridge would give a little where yours wouldn't. Also, as I mentioned above, freely-moving string length beyond the nut gives you more string to stretch, so that can make it feel looser as well.

But it still doesn't change the base tension of the string. At a specific pitch, the only thing that changes tension is the thickness of the string and the scale length - the length between the nut and the bridge.
 
#56
@BruceWane the tension comparison typed was between the experimental 3x locked guitar and a budget ht guitar with a long hockey stick headstock, it was the first time I noticed it, didn't want to make my already long post even longer with an excruciatingly long list of other ht guitars that supported only metricless conjecture. I put up with the locks and extra tension on that thing for a long while because it increased my laziness quotient.
 
#57
Happynoj said:
Can you explain why it would?
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I went fishing this weekend. When I weighed the fish I caught (it was a bass, believe it or not), it weighed 3 pounds on my fish scale.

If the hook were stuck in the fishes mouth and I tied the 2 feet of line that was still attached to the hook in the fish's mouth to the fish scale,
the fish would still weigh 3 pounds even though the string got longer.------ Same pull (tension) on the spring in the scale.
 
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#58
JimmyM said:
Well that's a whole different ballgame than the topic and not really relevant, is it? ;)
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Maybe, but try finding a post with the word Fodera in it that does not attract a similar comment.

I think you'll find it in the same place that has a thread with the word Relic in it that does not include a remark from a poster that just doesn't understand why anyone would buy a bass that has been blah blah blah zzzzzzz.....
 

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