Does class D have the Heft of SS

[eyeballkid]

right agedhorse!

 

[MordBass]

I'll save Loring the trouble and just go ahead and tell you you're unequivocally wrong and using crap speakers! lol

LOL great point... pesky Ampeg 810, Mesa/Boogie 215 and SWR 8x8's. All notoriously garbage cabs that suddenly behave when using a class D amp lol

 

[eyeballkid]

I personally don't like Class D, because to my ears it doesn't move me, but yes, that's totally subjective. I also wouldn't ever be able to see myself enjoying being in a relationship with most of my friend's girlfriends if they were single... but they seem to make them very happy, and likewise I can see how someone can think Class D is the best thing ever. Cool. Enjoy it. It is a really cool technological jump forward. So were MP3s, but I still prefer analog. However, I often listen to an iPod because I cant carry my turntable with me!

 

[svtb15]

The end user will always be the deciding factor. What works for them is all that matters . .

That's the root of the problem, we are trying to quantify subjectivity.

 

[xk49w]

IMO the difference between amplifiers with similar spec's, of different, or even the same class of output stage is in how they handle the overload condtion. The ebass finger style signal can have a peak-to-average ratio of more than 10 dB. Slap or percussive styles, 15, 20 dB? How the amplifier deals with this normal, highly dynamic mode of operation is I suspect, a key to the feel of the amp.

 

[Loring]

LOL great point... pesky Ampeg 810, Mesa/Boogie 215 and SWR 8x8's. All notoriously garbage cabs that suddenly behave when using a class D amp lol

at least there is some context now...

The problem I see with this whole thread is all of us have only tried a few amps on different topologies. All of us have different tonal preferences. We are trying to compare different topologies to a non-quantitative term that each of us likely has a different definition of (heft).

So really we are running in circles trying to define something that each of has a different idea of.

I can only compare 3 topologies and to be fair I've only used 3 amps in anger for any length of time. All three worked well at stage volumes in bars (class D yet to gig) and at rehearsals. The SVT is the only one I've taken into arenas and outdoor shows however.

I do have a few decades of experience (started in 1980) but more like various marriages than a swinger. Many on here will have had many more partners (amps) than I and many more gigs than I. At least I have deep experience with the few I've had (again amps - only one wife lol). Have yet to gig the D-class but it is certainly as loud and punchy as the other two. Not sure if that actually means "HEFT".

 

[agedhorse]

IMO the difference between amplifiers with similar spec's, of different, or even the same class of output stage is in how they handle the overload condtion. The ebass finger style signal can have a peak-to-average ratio of more than 10 dB. Slap or percussive styles, 15, 20 dB? How the amplifier deals with this normal, highly dynamic mode of operation is I suspect, a key to the feel of the amp.

Yup, and this illustrates why continuous power ratings may not accurately (or adequately) reflect what it happening in the real world.

 

[svtb15]

I've been doing it about as far back as you. My 1st label deal was in 1976 on Columbia/CBS
I too have went the multi SVT s. Then Crown amps and BGWs and even flame ( Phase Linears) .
And multiple 1000s of gigs across the planet , except for antarctica. Never got to go there ...YET

I have Class D amps.. They sound really good. I'd be lying if I said they didn't sound good.
They are easily as loud as any SVT head. I bring one of my Class D amp on ALL fly dates...
And I always get an 810 because they are everywhere. And if needed, the Class D can drive the snot out of almost any 810 if all we need is volume..

Im off the road for a few weeks and all my gear was dropped off at my house.
I put my aged old crown PSA2 next to my other amps into a bagend 112..
I went back and forth for a while . .Not scientific way to do it. But music is NOT science. Its a Vibe.
I'm NO Jaco. But i can read notation plus nashville # etc , chord charts , play by ear and play many different styles that has kept me working steadily for 40+ years.

Even though i was playing at a LOW volume thru a 112 bagend. The PSA2 sounded they way I wish to hear my instruments in my head.
The bands tech was with me. We both agreed. But he refused to ever move that PSA2 for me. said he would quit! lol
So that settled it ..

at least there is some context now...

The problem I see with this whole thread is all of us have only tried a few amps on different topologies. All of us have different tonal preferences. We are trying to compare different topologies to a non-quantitative term that each of us likely has a different definition of (heft).

So really we are running in circles trying to define something that each of has a different idea of.

I can only compare 3 topologies and to be fair I've only used 3 amps in anger for any length of time. All three worked well at stage volumes in bars (class D yet to gig) and at rehearsals. The SVT is the only one I've taken into arenas and outdoor shows however.

I do have a few decades of experience (started in 1980) but more like various marriages than a swinger. Many on here will have had many more partners (amps) than I and many more gigs than I. At least I have deep experience with the few I've had (again amps - only one wife lol). Have yet to gig the D-class but it is certainly as loud and punchy as the other two. Not sure if that actually means "HEFT".

 

[MordBass]

at least there is some context now...

The problem I see with this whole thread is all of us have only tried a few amps on different topologies. All of us have different tonal preferences. We are trying to compare different topologies to a non-quantitative term that each of us likely has a different definition of (heft).

So really we are running in circles trying to define something that each of has a different idea of.

I can only compare 3 topologies and to be fair I've only used 3 amps in anger for any length of time. All three worked well at stage volumes in bars (class D yet to gig) and at rehearsals. The SVT is the only one I've taken into arenas and outdoor shows however.

I do have a few decades of experience (started in 1980) but more like various marriages than a swinger. Many on here will have had many more partners (amps) than I and many more gigs than I. At least I have deep experience with the few I've had (again amps - only one wife lol). Have yet to gig the D-class but it is certainly as loud and punchy as the other two. Not sure if that actually means "HEFT".

Agreed. The bass and music matters as well. If I were thumb plucking flats in a bluegrass group I would likely be fine with the TH500 that I had. But the reality is that I play a lot of slap on an active 6 string with a low A and a hard hitting drummer. At shows the Aggie simply couldnt keep up with the dynamics regardless of which cab I was using. The crest doesnt even break a sweat. Even with lower tunings the responds with full attention.

 

[Loring]

Agreed. The bass and music matters as well. If I were thumb plucking flats in a bluegrass group I would likely be fine with the TH500 that I had. But the reality is that I play a lot of slap on an active 6 string with a low A and a hard hitting drummer. At shows the Aggie simply couldnt keep up with the dynamics regardless of which cab I was using. The crest doesnt even break a sweat. Even with lower tunings the responds with full attention.

wow low A. Many amps will have an HPF in there to remove some of those frequencies.

 

[MordBass]

wow low A. Many amps will have an HPF in there to remove some of those frequencies.

Im talking about the authority with which the note is reproduced.

 

[Loring]

Im talking about the authority with which the note is reproduced.

I get that. You're talking attack and presence. I'm thinking though that below 40hz you're mostly getting the harmonic. This will reduce the raw earth shakiness, you might otherwise get, but maybe tighten it up.

 

[MordBass]

I get that. You're talking attack and presence. I'm thinking though that below 40hz you're mostly getting the harmonic. This will reduce the raw earth shakiness, you might otherwise get, but maybe tighten it up.

True. The class D has a much lower threshold for getting tired down low or at high volume. Id suspect that most opinions on this subject stem from differing needs more than differing results.

 

[JGR]

I feel like you guys are getting lost in the weeds of mathematical specs and audio theory. Yes, thats important, but what it comes down to is the experience you have using it. The engineers may tell you some car is the finest and most efficient engineered automobile in history and it can simply be just not practical or deliver what each driver needs. Im aware of all the science involved, but from a user/listeners experience Class D just doesnt hit you with any real solidity. I cant explain why. Im sure Agedhorse will know the one class D amp that actually does deliver, hell... he may have helped design it, but I aint heard it yet, and with my body finally starting to show its years of wear and tear I SOREly wish I could find it, but... im still lugging iron and using an ice pack when I need it. ;-)

Come over and visit!

 

[eyeballkid]

Why are you so damn far away?! Lol

 

[ThisBass]

I remember the days when power amps were rated 20hz to 20k +,- blah blah THD < 0.002% from 20Hz to 1kHz etc etc..
You don't see that these days except for a few..
It would be nice to see a Standardization, so that we have reference point that is solid and repeatable .

I always was wondering about what numbers similar like this try to tell me as bass player.
Honestly as bass player and engineer I'd guess by default an amplifer like this must to have sound tired.

And even as FOH engineer I ain't pretty much interested in exorbitant smallish THD numbers right behind the decimal point cause we as FOH engineers we do amplify with headroom anyway IF the PA was properly designed just to have enough juice for the task.

For esotherical considerations these numbers may be much of more of an important subject than to folks who work with pro equipment day by day. I'm not sure every FOH engineer knows all the specs of the amplifiers he is used to by knowing all of total THD and bandwidth numbers versus a (sine) power.

I have never ever heard about any pro PA amplifier of hiding way too much of THD just to make a device impractical for PA applications. At the other hand side I have also never ever heard about an MI amplifier that would have revoltionized the MI world with plenty of bandwith and very low THD numbers.

I do understand that there is lots of demand to have reliable general Standardization that meets any application.
The idea on its own is not so bad but we should also force (just the same way) a common standard of "Understanding" what's going on under the hood in real practice with real signals and what it means for different tasks respectively different applications.

 

[BurningSkies]

I've been doing it about as far back as you. My 1st label deal was in 1976 on Columbia/CBS
I too have went the multi SVT s. Then Crown amps and BGWs and even flame ( Phase Linears) .
And multiple 1000s of gigs across the planet , except for antarctica. Never got to go there ...YET

I have Class D amps.. They sound really good. I'd be lying if I said they didn't sound good.
They are easily as loud as any SVT head. I bring one of my Class D amp on ALL fly dates...
And I always get an 810 because they are everywhere. And if needed, the Class D can drive the snot out of almost any 810 if all we need is volume..

Im off the road for a few weeks and all my gear was dropped off at my house.
I put my aged old crown PSA2 next to my other amps into a bagend 112..
I went back and forth for a while . .Not scientific way to do it. But music is NOT science. Its a Vibe.
I'm NO Jaco. But i can read notation plus nashville # etc , chord charts , play by ear and play many different styles that has kept me working steadily for 40+ years.

Even though i was playing at a LOW volume thru a 112 bagend. The PSA2 sounded they way I wish to hear my instruments in my head.
The bands tech was with me. We both agreed. But he refused to ever move that PSA2 for me. said he would quit! lol
So that settled it ..

Some amps just have a thing. It's probably a provable measurable thing if we put our minds to figuring out what that is. I know I was talking to one of the people involved in the CA9 who could point to a specific engineering decision/implementation that makes the unit feel good to bass players. It wasn't about the transformers or power supply etc.

I don't doubt that there are implementations of Class D amplifiers that can and will sound just as good...but I think that many engineers are still working on effectively harnessing the technology to provide that 'magic'. Yes, I know it's been around forever, but has only been at the popular forefront of MI usage for the past decade or so. Remember when CD's really sounded like 5hit? For the first 15 or so years of their popularity?

In the meantime, we play a balancing act. We pick the best sounding units that are acceptable to our transportation and gigging needs. Its a purely logical and pragmatic thing.

To the same extent, not all vintage tube amps are magic either, no matter what the common smack about them is. I have a vintage 70's 135w Fender Twin that will prove this.

 

[Loring]

Some amps just have a thing. It's probably a provable measurable thing if we put our minds to figuring out what that is. I know I was talking to one of the people involved in the CA9 who could point to a specific engineering decision/implementation that makes the unit feel good to bass players. It wasn't about the transformers or power supply etc.

You know - you may be on to something. Maybe we could actually compare wave forms to get an idea of attack and frequency response. The ramp up to maximum amplitude would show attack and the frequency response would show where the amps strongest fundamental lies...

I remember using matlab to quantify a refractive index test we used to do when I worked as QA tech at a glass factory. Visually we had to determine if the glass was good enough for automotive use depending on how straight zebra lines were on a wall behind the glass - we basically turned the glass till it was "acceptable" and read off the number. The problem of course was - this was subjective and depended on the tech doing the test and how tired his eyes were. Enter laser scanning, reflective and refractive readings and matlab. Eventually we had a repeatable and accurate system that wasn't reliant on a subjective interpretation. Then we closed the plant!

I think we will find the differences are quantifiable. My hypothesis will extend to saying - there are likely more differences brand to brand than to topologies.

 

[BaltBass5]

I'm out

 

[agedhorse]

I'm out

Huh? Were you ever in?