Does class D have the Heft of SS

[bucephylus]

Kind of an unfortunate thread.

Huge respect and kudos to @svtb15 and @agedhorse. VERY experienced cats. TB is lucky to have these kinds of voices.

I've posted waaay back in the thread; but here are my further $0.019.

Rewind 30 years or so, and we had SVT's for big gigs and at best the Walter Woods amps for those who wanted some legit power for smaller gigs. Those were kind of the reference points (of course there were other good amps; but, those were two reasonable references for the purposes of this thread).

Fast forward to today; and now, what I am reading is mainly a lot of pointless parochial bickering.

While I sympathize with the SVT or nothing fans (cause it is a great sounding amp): look, gigs have moved on. Some of them (actually an increasing number) are ampLESS. I don't think many are arguing the SVT doesn't sound great. It does. But, as Kirk was trying to get across, we can't use it ( or a CA9 or insert your older amp of choice) for everything. Fine.

Now, regarding Class D: my first brush with a Class D that suggested further promise was a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 sitting atop a Bergantino NV610. I absolutely defy any player, who has actually gigged it, to claim that rig doesn't have heft. I see a bunch of posts claiming Class D does NOT have heft based on an EXTREMELY limited gig experience with state of the art Class D. It's mostly two or three generation old Class D, and usually micros and not power amps. I read ZERO posts from folks who have paid their dues with the Bergantino B|Amp, for example, which Jim is still improving. No, most slags on Class D are based on amps two or three generations old. Hey, newsflash, the Class D technology is evolving rapidly, and the trend is in the right direction. We should be so lucky.

I guess I see the progress with Class D as a good thing. My Class D amps (Bergantino, Demeter, and Crest) have plenty of "heft" for my purposes. I read posts saying, "well, the TH350 didn't really do it for me; therefore, Class D ain't got no heft. QED." That's just ridiculous. But, if you are comfortable with confirmation bias, have at it. Meanwhile, I'm busier trying to figure out how do I get that sense of heft in gigs where I CAN'T have an amp. That's a more interesting Q for me right now. YMMV.

 

[BurningSkies]

Kind of an unfortunate thread.

Huge respect and kudos to @svtb15 and @agedhorse. VERY experienced cats. TB is lucky to have these kinds of voices.

I've posted waaay back in the thread; but here are my further $0.019.

Rewind 30 years or so, and we had SVT's for big gigs and at best the Walter Woods amps for those who wanted some legit power for smaller gigs. Those were kind of the reference points (of course there were other good amps; but, those were two reasonable references for the purposes of this thread).

Fast forward to today; and now, what I am reading is mainly a lot of pointless parochial bickering.

While I sympathize with the SVT or nothing fans (cause it is a great sounding amp): look, gigs have moved on. Some of them (actually an increasing number) are ampLESS. I don't think many are arguing the SVT doesn't sound great. It does. But, as Kirk was trying to get across, we can't use it ( or a CA9 or insert your older amp of choice) for everything. Fine.

Now, regarding Class D: my first brush with a Class D that suggested further promise was a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 sitting atop a Bergantino NV610. I absolutely defy any player, who has actually gigged it, to claim that rig doesn't have heft. I see a bunch of posts claiming Class D does NOT have heft based on an EXTREMELY limited gig experience with state of the art Class D. It's mostly two or three generation old Class D, and usually micros and not power amps. I read ZERO posts from folks who have paid their dues with the Bergantino B|Amp, for example, which Jim is still improving. No, most slags on Class D are based on amps two or three generations old. Hey, newsflash, the Class D technology is evolving rapidly, and the trend is in the right direction. We should be so lucky.

I guess I see the progress with Class D as a good thing. My Class D amps (Bergantino, Demeter, and Crest) have plenty of "heft" for my purposes. I read posts saying, "well, the TH350 didn't really do it for me; therefore, Class D ain't got no heft. QED." That's just ridiculous. But, if you are comfortable with confirmation bias, have at it. Meanwhile, I'm busier trying to figure out how do I get that sense of heft in gigs where I CAN'T have an amp. That's a more interesting Q for me right now. YMMV.

My vibe with class D amps isn't that I care about getting them tiny...it's what you can do in terms of end-user experience at light weight. That discounts that some of the benchmark original micros were actually amps like the LMII, which was Class AB with SMPS. But in the end, what I realized is that it's way easier to get big clean power on tap, which also ends up feeling quick and 'reactive' with class D amps. I remember way back not loving that an SVT started getting squishy when you got it cooking or that my original Kustom 200 only benched clean to 37w. But that you can have absolutely no headroom concerns on the amp side at 7-10 pounds is pretty amazing. How an amp handles the lows of a good B string, and deals with transients.

It will be fun to see where this technology leads and how the engineers behind these designs massage the technology to exceed our expectations and possibly win over the 'vintage-head' naysayers.

 

[BaltBass5]

Huh? Were you ever in?

I was following the thread for quite sometime but it's gotten a bit heady for me...lol

I've played many of the new Class D heads:

Aguilar TH500
SansAmp VT500
Mesa Subway D800
Eden TN
Ashdown EVO RM800

Although I thought some were pretty good if not great, I don't think any of them have the tone of my Ashdown ABM500 or my Eden WT550. I don't think those have the tone of my Ashdown CT300 or my Ampeg SVT-CL.

Bottom line for me is that I'm happy with lugging around my 11-15 lb heads rather than ditch 6-8 lbs and sacrifice the tone I happen to be comfortable with.

Does it mean Class D isn't up to snuff? NO. Does it mean those heads can't hang? NO. It just means that for me....I've found a balance between weight and a tone I like. I'll keep the heavy tube heads for the studio and an occasional special gig. For my weekly gigs and sessions 15 lbs isn't killing me. I don't feel the need to ditch 6 more lbs.

As for the technical aspect of what out performs what and what is perception, etc...etc...I could care less. I know what makes me happy.

There was some very cool technical insight in this post but also a lot of metephorical "d*ck measuring contests".

So I'm out. Lol

 

[bucephylus]

My vibe with class D amps isn't that I care about getting them tiny...it's what you can do in terms of end-user experience at light weight. That discounts that some of the benchmark original micros were actually amps like the LMII, which was Class AB with SMPS. But in the end, what I realized is that it's way easier to get big clean power on tap, which also ends up feeling quick and 'reactive' with class D amps. I remember way back not loving that an SVT started getting squishy when you got it cooking or that my original Kustom 200 only benched clean to 37w. But that you can have absolutely no headroom concerns on the amp side at 7-10 pounds is pretty amazing. How an amp handles the lows of a good B string, and deals with transients.

It will be fun to see where this technology leads and how the engineers behind these designs massage the technology to exceed our expectations and possibly win over the 'vintage-head' naysayers.

To be fair...

Some of this argument revolves around how much different players are looking to the amp to get "their sound." Nothing against that approach. But, for sure, players going for clean amplification and using pedals or something else or nothing to get "their sound" may be more inclined to use Class D. The only problem with using a tube amp to get "your sound" is that it can be a little difficult to translate to an ampless situation. Oh well...

We all certainly have different prefs. And we are all competing for the same gigs with the same boundary conditions. We should be kind to each other as fellow bassists; but, that doesn't mean being nice.

Bottom line: use what works for you to get the gig. Spend your time learning tunes. Use the tools that work. Don't waste time trying to belittle other players or techs moving our tools forward. We are ALL trying to figure out how to get good tone in a radically changing tech landscape. Get used to it.

 

[agedhorse]

I was following the thread for quite sometime but it's gotten a bit heady for me...lol

I've played many of the new Class D heads:

Aguilar TH500
SansAmp VT500
Mesa Subway D800
Eden TN
Ashdown EVO RM800

Although I thought some were pretty good if not great, I don't think any of them have the tone of my Ashdown ABM500 or my Eden WT550. I don't think those have the tone of my Ashdown CT300 or my Ampeg SVT-CL.

Bottom line for me is that I'm happy with lugging around my 11-15 lb heads rather than ditch 6-8 lbs and sacrifice the tone I happen to be comfortable with.

Does it mean Class D isn't up to snuff? NO. Does it mean those heads can't hang? NO. It just means that for me....I've found a balance between weight and a tone I like. I'll keep the heavy tube heads for the studio and an occasional special gig. For my weekly gigs and sessions 15 lbs isn't killing me. I don't feel the need to ditch 6 more lbs.

As for the technical aspect of what out performs what and what is perception, etc...etc...I could care less. I know what makes me happy.

There was some very cool technical insight in this post but also a lot of metephorical "d*ck measuring contests".

So I'm out. Lol

This goes towards my suggestions that it may not be the technology, but simply that different players have different tastes towards the particular voicing, and that some of the voicings that were more common with the older amps (in part because we weren't able to go quite where we would have liked to) fit some players better.

I have combined more vintage preamps with class D power sections in the past, and those certainly had a strong, somewhat vocal following (think Streamliner), but combined with a somewhat less vintage preamp also had a strong or even stronger following (think Shuttle). Different strokes for different folks.

This doesn't mean that I am only working on modernly voiced amps, there's all kinds of stuff I am working with all over the spectrum. The question really is how they might fit into an admittedly wide cross-section of player preferences. That's the hardest part.

 

[sinewave]

Would anybody care to explain why every pro audio touring amp handling subwoofer duty is solid state, and just about all are class D as well?

This is in a market with 6 and 7 figure budgets too...

Ahh, heresy.

Real professionals would use tube watts, which are much louder, warmer and harmonically richer.

Obviously, your guys don't understand the science behind it : tube watts, loudness, open, musical tone. They must have done that high school/university science nonsense. They would not get the idea of tube warmth or openness in music. I'll bet they also listen to CD's ? Terrible digital noise.

 

[Jim C]

"we can't use it ( or a CA9 or insert your older amp of choice) for everything"

I will have to disagree.
We choose not to carry the weight.

You till see young bands carrying big loads.
They usually play to loud rather than a the big fat sound from an amp not being pushed to the limit.

 

[BurningSkies]

Ahh, heresy.

Real professionals would use tube watts, which are much louder, warmer and harmonically richer.

Obviously, your guys don't understand the science behind it : tube watts, loudness, open, musical tone. They must have done that high school/university science nonsense. They would not get the idea of tube warmth or openness in music. I'll bet they also listen to CD's ? Terrible digital noise.

We played a stage this summer that had mono-block tube amps for the monitors and the mids/tweets of the FOH. It was horrible although humorous and informative. It would have been funnier if it wasn't at a well renowned festival and somewhat of an 'industry' gig. First off, once the tube amps got working and our backline hit, we tripped the breakers. Twice. Second, as the system heated up and the volume rose to meet the full FOH crowd and volume...the tube amps started distorting. All the monitors and the FOH besides the woofers started crunching like a vintage tube guitar amp. We commented that we'd never played such a horrible distorted stage before...but at least the distortion was smooth and pleasing to the ear.

 

[BadExample]

I was following the thread for quite sometime but it's gotten a bit heady for me...lol

I've played many of the new Class D heads:

Aguilar TH500
SansAmp VT500
Mesa Subway D800
Eden TN
Ashdown EVO RM800

Although I thought some were pretty good if not great, I don't think any of them have the tone of my Ashdown ABM500 or my Eden WT550. I don't think those have the tone of my Ashdown CT300 or my Ampeg SVT-CL.

Bottom line for me is that I'm happy with lugging around my 11-15 lb heads rather than ditch 6-8 lbs and sacrifice the tone I happen to be comfortable with.

Does it mean Class D isn't up to snuff? NO. Does it mean those heads can't hang? NO. It just means that for me....I've found a balance between weight and a tone I like. I'll keep the heavy tube heads for the studio and an occasional special gig. For my weekly gigs and sessions 15 lbs isn't killing me. I don't feel the need to ditch 6 more lbs.

As for the technical aspect of what out performs what and what is perception, etc...etc...I could care less. I know what makes me happy.

There was some very cool technical insight in this post but also a lot of metephorical "d*ck measuring contests".

So I'm out. Lol

NO FAIR! You can't post after calling "I'm out." Sheesh.

 

[GreyBeard]

This goes towards my suggestions that it may not be the technology, but simply that different players have different tastes towards the particular voicing, and that some of the voicings that were more common with the older amps (in part because we weren't able to go quite where we would have liked to) fit some players better.

I have combined more vintage preamps with class D power sections in the past, and those certainly had a strong, somewhat vocal following (think Streamliner), but combined with a somewhat less vintage preamp also had a strong or even stronger following (think Shuttle). Different strokes for different folks.

This doesn't mean that I am only working on modernly voiced amps, there's all kinds of stuff I am working with all over the spectrum. The question really is how they might fit into an admittedly wide cross-section of player preferences. That's the hardest part.

I personally would like to have an amp that had both old school and modern hi-fi voicing. Just put a toggle switch on front of it (left old school right hi-fi). I know, I know, Fender Rumble already has it.

 

[agedhorse]

Ahh, heresy.

Real professionals would use tube watts, which are much louder, warmer and harmonically richer.

Obviously, your guys don't understand the science behind it : tube watts, loudness, open, musical tone. They must have done that high school/university science nonsense. They would not get the idea of tube warmth or openness in music. I'll bet they also listen to CD's ? Terrible digital noise.

Funniest thing I've read in a while.

 

[Loring]

I personally would like to have an amp that had both old school and modern hi-fi voicing. Just put a toggle switch on front of it (left old school right hi-fi). I know, I know, Fender Rumble already has it.

So does the genzler....

 

[GreyBeard]

So does the genzler....

Cool

 

[JimmyM]

Kind of an unfortunate thread.

Eh... It's a good discussion with a lot of different viewpoints, and I've seen nastier discussions about it.

But for me, what makes it veer toward the unfortunate is sometimes those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to. Sorry, but I hear a difference that's common to all micros I've played, a difference that's common to all rigs with trad solid state power amps I've played, and a difference that's common to all rigs with tube power amps I've played. And I honestly don't think it's because of different preamps, because I hear these commonalities with each format every time. Granted, I've not played any of the latest bass amps racing for the state-of-the-art claim of the last two years, and I certainly don't claim to have played every piece of gear out there, but I have been hearing these claims for the past 10 years about micros but I've yet to play one that's convinced me that it's not a micro.

I can be quite pleased with certain examples of each kind of amp. Most of the time the differences are glaring, but there are shining examples of each format that make me think they're getting closer. Still, I honestly think I could pick out each format of power amp reliably enough in a blind play test. At least in bass amp world. I'd be willing to participate in some blind play tests, too, as long as I get paid. But if there are micro power amps out there that sound just like trad SS power amps, then I think we as bass players are getting lowballed because I've yet to hear them, and I scarcely think the technology has changed so much over the last year or two that something revolutionary has happened since then.

 

[eyeballkid]

Yup...What he said.

 

[GreyBeard]

Eh... It's a good discussion with a lot of different viewpoints, and I've seen nastier discussions about it.

But for me, what makes it veer toward the unfortunate is sometimes those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to. Sorry, but I hear a difference that's common to all micros I've played, a difference that's common to all rigs with trad solid state power amps I've played, and a difference that's common to all rigs with tube power amps I've played. And I honestly don't think it's because of different preamps, because I hear these commonalities with each format every time. Granted, I've not played any of the latest bass amps racing for the state-of-the-art claim of the last two years, and I certainly don't claim to have played every piece of gear out there, but I have been hearing these claims for the past 10 years about micros but I've yet to play one that's convinced me that it's not a micro.

I can be quite pleased with certain examples of each kind of amp. Most of the time the differences are glaring, but there are shining examples of each format that make me think they're getting closer. Still, I honestly think I could pick out each format of power amp reliably enough in a blind play test. At least in bass amp world. I'd be willing to participate in some blind play tests, too, as long as I get paid. But if there are micro power amps out there that sound just like trad SS power amps, then I think we as bass players are getting lowballed because I've yet to hear them, and I scarcely think the technology has changed so much over the last year or two that something revolutionary has happened since then.

It is probably because I've only played a class D (pf-500) for the past 5 years and I can't really remember how some of the big pre-power amp rigs that I've owned in the past have sounded compared to what I'm using now. All I can say is that Class D amps are getting the job done for me. But, I respect those who hear a difference and prefer those heavier amps. One of these days I'm gonna hook up that Yamaha p2500 power amp from out in the shed and drive it with the pf-500's preamp and just see if I can hear any difference.

Say what you think but always be kind.

 

[JimmyM]

It is probably because I've only played a class D (pf-500) for the past 5 years and I can't really remember how some of the big pre-power amp rigs that I've owned in the past have sounded compared to what I'm using now. All I can say is that Class D amps are getting the job done for me. But, I respect those who hear a difference and prefer those heavier amps. One of these days I'm gonna hook up that Yamaha p2500 power amp from out in the shed and drive it with the pf-500's preamp and just see if I can hear any difference.

Well yeah...like I said, there are shining examples of every kind of amp format

Say what you think but always be kind.

Does that go for Facebook, too?

 

[GreyBeard]

Well yeah...like I said, there are shining examples of every kind of amp format


Does that go for Facebook, too?

Facebook is just nuts.

 

[MordBass]

Facebook is just nuts.

heres a facebook tip... I hid EVERYBODY on my friend list from my news feed so now I have no news feed.
If I want to see how a friend is doing, I can search em and scroll... otherwise theres no stupidity to grab my attention and suck me in.

 

[BadExample]

Kindness will get you nowhere.

I'd be willing to participate in some blind play tests, too, as long as I get paid.

I'm callin' you out Jimmy! As soon as I figure out how to get a $100 bill to stay put on the correct choice.
TB is a fantastic place to live, learn and thrive. No need to get all butt-hurt when someone disagrees. Top notch engineers tellin' us like it is, answering questions, offering free advice. 90% of the great information is embedded in threads like this, deep in it's stinky bowels, between insults, humor and comradery posts. Those who can't handle being called out when they say something stupid and wrong (like I have many times) should take up cell phone video games and go away or maybe just use the ignore feature and ignore everyone they don't agree with.
Now go away and let me get some coffee down.