• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Does class D have the Heft of SS

#501
BadExample said:
Kindness will get you nowhere.

I'm callin' you out Jimmy! As soon as I figure out how to get a $100 bill to stay put on the correct choice.
TB is a fantastic place to live, learn and thrive. No need to get all butt-hurt when someone disagrees. Top notch engineers tellin' us like it is, answering questions, offering free advice. 90% of the great information is embedded in threads like this, deep in it's stinky bowels, between insults, humor and comradery posts. Those who can't handle being called out when they say something stupid and wrong (like I have many times) should take up cell phone video games and go away or maybe just use the ignore feature and ignore everyone they don't agree with.
Now go away and let me get some coffee down.:D :D
Click to expand...

The secret of TB and/or facebook is not to be too emotionally invested in the discussion. The other secret is to notice when someone IS too invested. Once you know that there are a few different ways you can work with that. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavesnothereCA, BadExample and Passinwind
#502
Jim C said:
"we can't use it ( or a CA9 or insert your older amp of choice) for everything"

I will have to disagree.
We choose not to carry the weight.

You till see young bands carrying big loads.
They usually play to loud rather than a the big fat sound from an amp not being pushed to the limit.
Click to expand...
That was not what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

With the continued increase in use of IEM systems and ampless backlines, the player has to figure out how to get the sound they want using the FOH as their amp. No amp = can't use one amp for everything. Sure a young player with just one or two gigs who doesn't play in a variety of settings may not run into this. That's true. My comment was intended for the broader community of gigs out there.
 
Last edited:
#503
bucephylus said:
That was not what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

With the continued increase in use of IEM systems and ampless backlines, the players has to figure out how to get the sound they want using the FOH as their amp. No amp = can't use one amp for everything. Sure a young player with just one or two gigs who doesn't play in a variety of settings may not run into this. That's true. My comment was intended for the broader community of gigs out there.
Click to expand...
We've recently switched to IEM use on stage and I'm not finding my need for good amplification has been lessened. While I initially turned way down, lately the people in the band have been asking me to bring my stage volume up. Also, I've found that having IEM off my DI gives me a better sense of what I'm presenting to FOH which has allowed me to dial in my preamp more effectively. I don't see a future where I show up without an amp, or at the very least have my preamp on stage for it's DI and tone shaping. Not to mention that we really have to effectively 'read' a room and the situation to make sure using our system is effective and won't ruffle feathers along the way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Artman and bucephylus
#504
JimmyM said:
Eh... :D It's a good discussion with a lot of different viewpoints, and I've seen nastier discussions about it.

But for me, what makes it veer toward the unfortunate is sometimes those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to. Sorry, but I hear a difference that's common to all micros I've played, a difference that's common to all rigs with trad solid state power amps I've played, and a difference that's common to all rigs with tube power amps I've played. And I honestly don't think it's because of different preamps, because I hear these commonalities with each format every time. Granted, I've not played any of the latest bass amps racing for the state-of-the-art claim of the last two years, and I certainly don't claim to have played every piece of gear out there, but I have been hearing these claims for the past 10 years about micros but I've yet to play one that's convinced me that it's not a micro.

I can be quite pleased with certain examples of each kind of amp. Most of the time the differences are glaring, but there are shining examples of each format that make me think they're getting closer. Still, I honestly think I could pick out each format of power amp reliably enough in a blind play test. At least in bass amp world. I'd be willing to participate in some blind play tests, too, as long as I get paid. :D But if there are micro power amps out there that sound just like trad SS power amps, then I think we as bass players are getting lowballed because I've yet to hear them, and I scarcely think the technology has changed so much over the last year or two that something revolutionary has happened since then.
Click to expand...
Jimmy, first, what is this victim business all about? "those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to." Seriously? For one thing, who cares what some less informed soul posts on here? For another, I don't see much of what you are referring to. Most players doing gigs have experience with SVT's etc, and most of the informed posting respects what the big amps can do. As I mentioned, the SVT is great. No "talking down" there.

Second, This thread is asking about Class D. Not micro amps specifically. Since the majority of newer FOH gear out there is Class D, whenever you are being projected from FOH, whether by mic'd cab or DI, your ultimate amplification is Class D. Just the way it is. Belittling Class D, at least in the FOH, is a bit like someone who preferred horses to automobiles and is complaining that the automobiles are taking over the roads. The preference for the horse may be a legitimate preference; but that didn't stop what happened. Eventually, if you are going to get down the road, you have to use a car.

Which raises another interesting aspect. If your FOH projection is actually Class D, and you are sending your signal from your mic'd SVT, is the tone "tube tone," or is it "Class D tone?" I mean, if you are happy with that sound, doesn't that suggest that if the preamp could send the right tone to the House, capturing the nuances the SVT is giving you, that you would be ok? Well, enter DSP. Which may not be where we need it to be yet. But, that's where much work and recent progress is going on. There are some pretty powerful modeling rigs available now, intense work is continuing on this front, and that is where a lot of progress is being made. Is it there yet? IDK. Like you, I can't keep up with everything. But, some of the recent work I've been exposed to is getting VERY impressive. And some of that is filtering into the higher end micros. That you haven't tried yet. I understand you are mainly aligned with one company; but, other stuff is going on. The scenery is changing and we won't stop it. Horses are still very cool. But, I take the car down to the store. Doesn't mean I like cars.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: HarveySpaceBass and agedhorse
#505
bucephylus said:
That was not what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

With the continued increase in use of IEM systems and ampless backlines, the players has to figure out how to get the sound they want using the FOH as their amp. No amp = can't use one amp for everything. Sure a young player with just one or two gigs who doesn't play in a variety of settings may not run into this. That's true. My comment was intended for the broader community of gigs out there.
Click to expand...
Sorry mate; my mistake!
 
#507
bucephylus said:
Jimmy, first, what is this victim business all about? "those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to." Seriously? For one thing, who cares what some less informed soul posts on here. For another, I don't see much of what you are referring to. Most players doing gigs have experience with SVT's etc, and most of the informed posting respects what the big amps can do. As I mentioned, the SVT is great. No "talking down" there.

Second, This thread is asking about Class D. Not micro amps specifically. Since the majority of newer FOH gear out there is Class D, whenever you are being projected from FOH, whether by mic'd cab or DI, your ultimate amplification is Class D. Just the way it is. Belittling Class D, at least in the FOH, is a bit like someone who preferred horses to automobiles and is complaining that the automobiles are taking over the roads. The preference for the horse may be a legitimate preference; but that didn't stop what happened. Eventually, if you are going to get down the road, you have to use a car.

Which raises another interesting aspect. If your FOH projection is actually Class D, and you are sending your signal from your mic'd SVT, is the tone "tube tone," or is it "Class D tone?" I mean, if you are happy with that sound, doesn't that suggest that if the preamp could send the right tone to the House, capturing the nuances the SVT is giving you, that you would be ok? Well, enter DSP. Which may not be where we need it to be yet. But, that's where much work and recent progress is going on. There are some pretty powerful modeling rigs available now, intense work is continuing on this front, and that is where a lot of progress is being made. Is it there yet? IDK. Like you, I can't keep up with everything. But, some of the recent work I've been exposed to is getting VERY impressive. And some of that is filtering into the higher end micros. That you haven't tried yet. I understand you are mainly aligned with one company; but, other stuff is going on. The scenery is changing and we won't stop it. Horses are still very cool. But, I take the car down to the store. Doesn't mean I like cars.
Click to expand...

Now wait just a darn minute; are you trying to use facts in this thread?
I believe what the senator meant to say was that he likes the tone of tubes on stage and that hopefully that transfers to FoH.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bucephylus
#513
BurningSkies said:
We've recently switched to IEM use on stage and I'm not finding my need for good amplification has been lessened. While I initially turned way down, lately the people in the band have been asking me to bring my stage volume up. Also, I've found that having IEM off my DI gives me a better sense of what I'm presenting to FOH which has allowed me to dial in my preamp more effectively. I don't see a future where I show up without an amp, or at the very least have my preamp on stage for it's DI and tone shaping. Not to mention that we really have to effectively 'read' a room and the situation to make sure using our system is effective and won't ruffle feathers along the way.
Click to expand...
So, your gig is in the "tweener" stage of things. Warning: that's where my current act started, and now we are using no amps. That decision was mainly related to giving the sound person full control of the FOH projection at all volume levels. Though I must admit that the drums remain a sticky point.

Also, I'd just add that none of this by any means should imply that a player shouldn't maintain the best amplification available to them. Amplified backline gigs are still VERY much in play. Use what works best for you.
 
#516
bucephylus said:
So, your gig is in the "tweener" stage of things. Warning: that's where my current act started, and now we are using no amps. That decision was mainly related to giving the sound person full control of the FOH projection at all volume levels. Though I must admit that the drums remain a sticky point.

Also, I'd just add that none of this by any means should imply that a player shouldn't maintain the best amplification available to them. Amplified backline gigs are still VERY much in play. Use what works best for you.
Click to expand...

I've got a live drummer, a hand drummer and a guitarist that's playing a Mesa. Stage volume is a pretty real thing. The real reason we did the move is our singers (one of which also plays guitar) were walking into every club and asking for every bit of headroom they could get for vocals in their monitors. The IEMs have helped me treat our stage volume as if I have 'controllable ear plugs' and limit the volume while still hearing clearly what I want to hear. But then I also just got a new 2500w RMS power amp. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bucephylus
#517
BurningSkies said:
I've got a live drummer, a hand drummer and a guitarist that's playing a Mesa. Stage volume is a pretty real thing. The real reason we did the move is our singers (one of which also plays guitar) were walking into every club and asking for every bit of headroom they could get for vocals in their monitors. The IEMs have helped me treat our stage volume as if I have 'controllable ear plugs' and limit the volume while still hearing clearly what I want to hear. But then I also just got a new 2500w RMS power amp. ;)
Click to expand...
Uh huh. Exactly how we got started down the road. Darn those singers anyhow...oh, wait, I also do some of the singing. Anyhow...
 
#519
Ampslut said:
I personally would like to have an amp that had both old school and modern hi-fi voicing. Just put a toggle switch on front of it (left old school right hi-fi). I know, I know, Fender Rumble already has it.
Click to expand...
How about push a button? :smug:
Check this out.





The Genzler does not just amplify the bass sound it also brings out the percussive thump, which is what I think of when someone mentions "Heft". That kick in the butt like the kick of the kick drum instead of just bass tone loud, that feel that turns your note into a drum. To me this is drool.

Most of the class D bass heads available at Guitar Center are just bass tone loud and do not deliver that percussive thump, thus bringing in the stereotype that it is the amp class.
In my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iammr2, DavesnothereCA, BadExample and 2 others
#520
S-Bigbottom said:
Most of the class D bass heads available at Guitar Center are just bass tone loud and do not deliver that percussive thump, thus bringing in the stereotype that it is the amp class.
Click to expand...
I wonder if that is caused by the attack getting limited, or distorted maybe, by too small of amp; like it lacks overhead and those peaks get muted. Just a thot. I have dain bramage. Don't listen to me...
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavesnothereCA

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back