Does class D have the Heft of SS

[aborgman]

And I honestly don't think it's because of different preamps, because I hear these commonalities with each format every time.

I've played the following:

B15 based preamp -> Carvin DCM1000 (transformer power supply, Class AB, 700W) -> fEarful 15/6
B15 based preamp -> QSC PLX1602 (SMPS power supply, Class AB, 1000W) -> fEarful 15/6
B15 based preamp -> Crown XLS1500 (SMPS power supply, Class D, 1050W) -> fEarful 15/6

... and I can't tell a bit of difference between the power amps.

 

[GreyBeard]

Kindness will get you nowhere.

Where are you wanting to go? Kindness just means giving your opinion without being rude or condescending.

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy, first, what is this victim business all about? "those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to." Seriously? For one thing, who cares what some less informed soul posts on here? For another, I don't see much of what you are referring to. Most players doing gigs have experience with SVT's etc, and most of the informed posting respects what the big amps can do. As I mentioned, the SVT is great. No "talking down" there.

I don't feel victimized...just talked down to on occasion. Not saying you're doing it. Just addressing some of the comments insinuating that we don't know what we're hearing.

Second, This thread is asking about Class D. Not micro amps specifically. Since the majority of newer FOH gear out there is Class D, whenever you are being projected from FOH, whether by mic'd cab or DI, your ultimate amplification is Class D. Just the way it is. Belittling Class D, at least in the FOH, is a bit like someone who preferred horses to automobiles and is complaining that the automobiles are taking over the roads. The preference for the horse may be a legitimate preference; but that didn't stop what happened. Eventually, if you are going to get down the road, you have to use a car.

I'm not driving a bass amp, though, and that's where car analogies always fall short for me. I'm not trying to get from point A from point B in the fastest time when I'm playing.

Which raises another interesting aspect. If your FOH projection is actually Class D, and you are sending your signal from your mic'd SVT, is the tone "tube tone," or is it "Class D tone?" I mean, if you are happy with that sound, doesn't that suggest that if the preamp could send the right tone to the House, capturing the nuances the SVT is giving you, that you would be ok? Well, enter DSP. Which may not be where we need it to be yet. But, that's where much work and recent progress is going on. There are some pretty powerful modeling rigs available now, intense work is continuing on this front, and that is where a lot of progress is being made. Is it there yet? IDK. Like you, I can't keep up with everything. But, some of the recent work I've been exposed to is getting VERY impressive. And some of that is filtering into the higher end micros. That you haven't tried yet. I understand you are mainly aligned with one company; but, other stuff is going on. The scenery is changing and we won't stop it. Horses are still very cool. But, I take the car down to the store. Doesn't mean I like cars.

Just because I play one brand of amps onstage doesn't mean I don't try other amps when the opportunity arises. Have not gotten to play stuff like Quilter, Andy's new Mesa amps, Genzler, and when I do get the chance I will approach them with an open mind. And as for PA systems, they are what they are and I have no control over it. One can argue whether we're hearing the "tube tone" vs "class D tone" in a PA powered with class D amps till the cows come home. All I can tell you is that when I mic an SVT, or when I do a speaker-level DI with one of my tube amps, or use a high quality tube DI with a good sized output transformer like the REDDI, my sound in the PA is much better than when I use SS DI's, preamp only DI's, or modeling. I prefer the physical reaction of sound waves hitting a mic diaphragm, but it's a DI world for live bass, and I've at least figured out how to make the DI sound close enough to where I don't sweat it like I used to. But yeah, I can absolutely tell the difference through a PA, so it's not like I'm taking the heavy stuff in vain.

 

[seamonkey]

I've played the following:

B15 based preamp -> Carvin DCM1000 (transformer power supply, Class AB, 700W) -> fEarful 15/6
B15 based preamp -> QSC PLX1602 (SMPS power supply, Class AB, 1000W) -> fEarful 15/6
B15 based preamp -> Crown XLS1500 (SMPS power supply, Class D, 1050W) -> fEarful 15/6

... and I can't tell a bit of difference between the power amps.

Around here, you might be accused of being "color" blind

 

[JimmyM]

I've played the following:

B15 based preamp -> Carvin DCM1000 (transformer power supply, Class AB, 700W) -> fEarful 15/6
B15 based preamp -> QSC PLX1602 (SMPS power supply, Class AB, 1000W) -> fEarful 15/6
B15 based preamp -> Crown XLS1500 (SMPS power supply, Class D, 1050W) -> fEarful 15/6

... and I can't tell a bit of difference between the power amps.

I respect your opinion. I have heard from others that they can tell the difference, but I don't use dedicated power amps for bass and don't have much use for buying PA, so until I can arrange for someone to let me borrow theirs for a few days, I can't have an intelligent opinion on them, only dedicated bass and guitar amps. And I can tell the difference in the ones I've played pretty much every time. Doesn't mean they don't sound good, but I can tell.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I feel like you guys are getting lost in the weeds of mathematical specs and audio theory. Yes, thats important, but what it comes down to is the experience you have using it. The engineers may tell you some car is the finest and most efficient engineered automobile in history and it can simply be just not practical or deliver what each driver needs. Im aware of all the science involved, but from a user/listeners experience Class D just doesnt hit you with any real solidity. I cant explain why. Im sure Agedhorse will know the one class D amp that actually does deliver, hell... he may have helped design it, but I aint heard it yet, and with my body finally starting to show its years of wear and tear I SOREly wish I could find it, but... im still lugging iron and using an ice pack when I need it. ;-)

There are more than one. What have you checked out lately?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Been playing for 20+ years... had more amps than I can recall.
Recently used a TH500 as my main head for a year, sold it and got a Crest CA9. Sounds a million times better.

FWIW I also grabbed an MB200 that I toss in my gigbag for rehearsals here and there.

Also, to be fair I owned them simultaneously for a few weeks. Even at lower volumes the sled was better. Now dont get me wrong, if you play churches or small bars where you use a 1x12 or 2x10 and then DI out... the Aggie was fantastic. But it doesnt even come close to bringing the thunder like a huge SS. I dont even know what to call it... the X factor? the 6th sense? the 4th dimension? the soul? the wrath? Who knows what its called.

IME the TH500 doesn't even come close to bringing the thunder of many other class D amps. So compared to a CA9, which is akin to carrying a toddler in a more compact format IMO, of course it would come up short. So would an MB200. Against most other class D's too.

This again highlights a common problem... the items being compared are worlds apart as to where they fit in the whole scheme of things. I'd put my 10 year old Markbass LMII or F1 up against the Aggie. I put my Crown XLS1500 powered rack (with Yamaha preamp) up against my highly touted Aguilar DB750 on a gig. Fingerstyle was a draw, with more percussive technique the rack walked away. Bye bye DB750. I'd put my Quilter BB800 up against a CA9 all day long. It replaced my rack.

tldr;
Try better variants of gear.

What cabs were you using with each amp? It can matter.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nah, Id call it experience. Theres just a difference. The class D is lacking something once you get to a volume where youre playing with a drummer/other musicians.

How did you narrow it down to class D being the culprit? Not any particular amp... class D?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't feel victimized...just talked down to on occasion. Not saying you're doing it. Just addressing some of the comments insinuating that we don't know what we're hearing.


I'm not driving a bass amp, though, and that's where car analogies always fall short for me. I'm not trying to get from point A from point B in the fastest time when I'm playing.


Just because I play one brand of amps onstage doesn't mean I don't try other amps when the opportunity arises. Have not gotten to play stuff like Quilter, Andy's new Mesa amps, Genzler, and when I do get the chance I will approach them with an open mind. And as for PA systems, they are what they are and I have no control over it. One can argue whether we're hearing the "tube tone" vs "class D tone" in a PA powered with class D amps till the cows come home. All I can tell you is that when I mic an SVT, or when I do a speaker-level DI with one of my tube amps, or use a high quality tube DI with a good sized output transformer like the REDDI, my sound in the PA is much better than when I use SS DI's, preamp only DI's, or modeling. I prefer the physical reaction of sound waves hitting a mic diaphragm, but it's a DI world for live bass, and I've at least figured out how to make the DI sound close enough to where I don't sweat it like I used to. But yeah, I can absolutely tell the difference through a PA, so it's not like I'm taking the heavy stuff in vain.

Getting from point A to B in the fastest time isn't the goal for the majority of cars out there. But like gear, some will focus on a spec and think it tells more of the story than it actually does. You can compare skidpad numbers but one car can feel great at or near the limit while another scares the holy bejeebus out of you while generating the same number. But the number is the same so...
:/

Details have and do matter. But they're the enemy of people who want to make choices simpler... or simple choices.

 

[Passinwind]

Eh... It's a good discussion with a lot of different viewpoints, and I've seen nastier discussions about it.

But for me, what makes it veer toward the unfortunate is sometimes those of us who hear a difference for the better in heavier gear are being talked down to.

That cuts both ways, big time. But I kinda dig mud wrestling, so it stopped phasing me at least a couple of decades ago. And as I've said quite a few times, I find the fashion show aspects of the music business to often trump rationalism and scary science (which when done well always involves listening, contrary to what many seem to think) and that's OK by me as well.

 

[MordBass]

How did you narrow it down to class D being the culprit? Not any particular amp... class D?

Because of variables. Ive used the TH500 with an Ampeg 810, Mesa 215, SWR 8x8... Ive also used a Trace Elliot head, the MB200, a Hartke LH500, Hartke 3500, QSC 2450, Ampeg SVT4PRO, Crest CA9, GK 700RB, MarkBass LMII each with one of those cabs. I used the same basses for either band as well as the same cables. Additionally Ive tried out tons of different heads in a store setting and its always the same thing with the Class D amps. They sound awesome but once you clear bedroom levels they start to fall short.

Most importantly, I used the Aguilars pre section into the Crest and heard the difference immediately. Even my non-gearhead drummer and singer/guitarist said they could hear the difference. Said that the Crest had a presence in the room that the other simply didnt.
Dont get me wrong, the Aguilar is an AWESOME piece of gear and very useful. But at the end of the day, the lead sleds simply sound better to my ears and chest. Its the immediacy and density of the low notes that do it for me.

For full disclosure Im in two bands. In one I am commonly playing a Zon Sonus6 with the bass upped a bit and a lot of slapping. In the other I am playing a Jackson CMX upgraded with EMG CS/DC pups and BQS Preamp and a TON of very fast picking as it is black metal.

 

[BurningSkies]

I respect your opinion. I have heard from others that they can tell the difference, but I don't use dedicated power amps for bass and don't have much use for buying PA, so until I can arrange for someone to let me borrow theirs for a few days, I can't have an intelligent opinion on them, only dedicated bass and guitar amps. And I can tell the difference in the ones I've played pretty much every time. Doesn't mean they don't sound good, but I can tell.

To me this is sort of like the fact that on a given night I may be unhappy with a song's performance. I'm inside it and there's all sorts of micro timings that are going on that are either working or not. And on stage it really counts and really becomes 'amplified' in my perception.

...then later I hear a recording of the performance and I can't freakin' tell that something's not clicking. Sounds fine enough.

That's the way I also feel on stage when it comes to amps it's a game of feels and perception amplified in that moment...but under no circumstances do I feel that it's imaginary etc. It's just 'tone under a microscope'.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

I wonder if that is caused by the attack getting limited, or distorted maybe, by too small of amp; like it lacks overhead and those peaks get muted. Just a thot. I have dain bramage. Don't listen to me...

In my opinion, I feel that most company's treat class D as their smaller cheaper line and not as their flagship products so they design them as such.

Which is why I did not go with them, I purchased from someone that treated their class D amp as their flagship no compromise in quality, performance and reliability.

 

[aborgman]

IME the TH500 doesn't even come close to bringing the thunder of many other class D amps. So compared to a CA9, which is akin to carrying a toddler in a more compact format IMO, of course it would come up short. So would an MB200. Against most other class D's too.

Just the massive headroom difference seems like a guarantee of difference in sound...

A CA9 will dump 1600W into an 8 ohm load.

A TH500 is 250W at 8 ohm.

A MB200 is 140W at 8 ohm.

These aren't exactly the same power class of amps.... I'd expect any 1600W amp, regardless of topology, to hit harder than any 200W amp, regardless of topology.

 

[MordBass]

Just the massive headroom difference seems like a guarantee of difference in sound...

A CA9 will dump 1600W into an 8 ohm load.

A TH500 is 250W at 8 ohm.

A MB200 is 140W at 8 ohm.

These aren't exactly the same power class of amps.... I'd expect any 1600W amp, regardless of topology, to hit harder than any 200W amp, regardless of topology.

I know what youre saying but there have been many a tech debate here stating that at a normal listening level there would be no difference.
Also, Im using one channel of the CA9 into one cab at smaller shows so its not like Im bridging the whole deal. I know that the Crest is a far more powerful amp but its not just the Crest that Im talkin about. Any ClassD head that ive played an actual show with has been lacking in the bottom end and punctuality compared to the SS amps that I've used. Its just something that I've always noticed.
Believe me, if the Class D sounded the same I'd have gone out and bought one to use instead of my rack.

 

[Figjam]

FWIW I used to use a CA6 and it was hefty in every sense of the word. Definitely a great sounding power amp. Would definitely use one again.

 

[Passinwind]

Any ClassD head that ive played an actual show with has been lacking in the bottom end and punctuality compared to the SS amps that I've used. I

Maybe just a personal prejudice, but, respectfully, please don't state things that way. All Class D MI amps that I know of are solid state. And virtually all of them use MOSFET output devices, so that distinction doesn't really fly either. Certainly not a big deal until we can somehow agree what the heck Heft means though...

 

[MordBass]

Maybe just a personal prejudice, but, respectfully, please don't state things that way. All Class D MI amps that I know of are solid state. And virtually all of them use MOSFET output devices, so that distinction doesn't really fly either. Certainly not a big deal until we can somehow agree what the heck Heft means though...View attachment 2809087

Fair point. by SS I meant traditional lead sled amplifier.

 

[Passinwind]

Fair point. by SS I meant traditional lead sled amplifier.

Roger that. Hard to fault you or anyone for stating it the other way given the thread title, in any case. But I think it's useful to try to keep technical discussions on track as far as technical distinctions.

 

[Passinwind]

Fair point. by SS I meant traditional lead sled amplifier.

Just curious: have you ever tried a Class D lead sled?