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Does older wood really sound better? and how long does it take?

hi,

having looked through this thread, i notice that people have not mentioned the idea that the vibrations of playing music on an instrument can change the instrument's resonance, etc.

i know i will have people scoffing at this, but it's not unusual for string players to put their instruments in front of stereo speakers to open an instrument up.

also, i remember rick turner and steve rabe (if i remember this correctly, rick i'm sure of) experimenting with a vibrating machine to open instruments up. don't remember if it was mechanical vibrations or sound vibrations.

so, maybe some of those older instruments have the mojo of having been played a ton.

ymmv.
 
IMHO, this a rather pointless (though interesting) discussion.

Wood pertaining to basses has about a thousand variables - species/subspecies of wood, where/how it is grown, how/how long it is dried, constuction methods, the design/assembly of the bass itself.

How can one reasonably single out age of the wood on its own? Do all types of wood age exactly the same way? Even all pieces of the same type of wood? In different environments? Do all get "better" with age? Do they continually get better, or peak after a time and then start getting worse?

If it's vibration that makes the difference, how can you tell if an old bass has been played for 100 hours or 100,000 hours over the years? And maybe the ones that didn't get played sounded lousy to begin with.

And even if science can show that wood changes over the years, how can you prove it makes an audible difference, much less a positive one? You can't do a meaningful test between two different instuments from different periods, when models produced in the same factory on the same day sound different. And if you wait even a few seconds (much less years) between listening tests, we lose our reference point and the results become invalid.

Is a mediocre vintage bass better than a top notch new one? And most importantly, if I like the sound of my basses (new or old), what difference does it make what they're made out of? It's the sound (and playability) that are important to me.

In summary, IMHO the best vintage basses sound terrific, but so do the best new ones. And the best vintage ones sounded great when they were new too, didn't they? And if I really like the way my basses sound now, why do I have to wait 15-20 (200?, 1000?) years for them to "improve"?

drewfx
 
IMHO, this a rather pointless (though interesting) discussion.

Wood pertaining to basses has about a thousand variables - species/subspecies of wood, where/how it is grown, how/how long it is dried, constuction methods, the design/assembly of the bass itself.

How can one reasonably single out age of the wood on its own? Do all types of wood age exactly the same way? Even all pieces of the same type of wood? In different environments? Do all get "better" with age? Do they continually get better, or peak after a time and then start getting worse?

If it's vibration that makes the difference, how can you tell if an old bass has been played for 100 hours or 100,000 hours over the years? And maybe the ones that didn't get played sounded lousy to begin with.

And even if science can show that wood changes over the years, how can you prove it makes an audible difference, much less a positive one? You can't do a meaningful test between two different instuments from different periods, when models produced in the same factory on the same day sound different. And if you wait even a few seconds (much less years) between listening tests, we lose our reference point and the results become invalid.

Is a mediocre vintage bass better than a top notch new one? And most importantly, if I like the sound of my basses (new or old), what difference does it make what they're made out of? It's the sound (and playability) that are important to me.

In summary, IMHO the best vintage basses sound terrific, but so do the best new ones. And the best vintage ones sounded great when they were new too, didn't they? And if I really like the way my basses sound now, why do I have to wait 15-20 (200?, 1000?) years for them to "improve"?

drewfx

Excellent! And +1
 
Chances are each of us will be a better player if we play a lot over many, many years on an instrument. That just might contribute to a better sound too ;)

Does anyone think that if all those great Motown records were recorded on actual vintage instruments, instead of relatively new ones would they sound any different? Or do you think that the style and personality of a great player on a good instrument adds the sparkle?
 
Excellent! And +1

Without disrespect, since your posts have been very helpful to me as a lurker (thanks btw), -1!

As a scientist (albeit in a totally different field) I feel that when people talk about variables in this manner they are misunderstanding the nature of different types of variables and the quality of different types of evidence.

I suspect wood age could well affect tone. And that the chemical/structural nature of the changes would in many cases be similar across a broad range of wood types - they're all lignin, cellulose, oils and water after all. Thus although the effect would not be constant it would certainly be similar and the trend would be towards a particular effect.
Wood age certainly improves the tone of acoustic guitars, that is generally accepted by musicians (who although not scientists do generally have the best, most discerning ear for their instruments) and by many makers I know of. Probably this effect has been examined in the scientific literature since it is commercially relevant though I don't fancy doing a search and review right now! People's experiences are worthwhile subject for discussion since they are the best type of evidence available in terms of audibility short of using measurement mics in an unfeasibly controlled experiment.

The 'thousand different woods and set-up' etc etc argument is used again and again on web fora as a 'myth debunking' argument, even in extreme cases I've seen on here to argue that wood type has no reproducible effect on electric bass/guitar tone, which is audibly and scientifically complete rubbish. It's a bit long-winded but I think it's worth going over why this is the case here. People forget that the resonance of the system AS A WHOLE is what gets amplified. The string/pickup coupling is the point at which the signal gets fed into the preamp but the string vibration will be damped to different degrees by whatever it's mounted to, ie the wooden body of the instrument via the bridge. In the case of wood type, these effects can be demonstrated to be audible by the performance of identically mounted strings of the same type set in tension within different wood types (via metal pegs if you like). Woods that vibrate to different degrees will dissipate string energy faster making the initial acoustic output louder and causing a faster global decay. It follows that resonance behaviour at multiple frequencies will damp different string harmonics to different degrees, hence changing tone.

Sorry if all that seems obvious, indeed first principles, but people often neglect it completely in these discussions! So on to wood age. Now, as people have pointed out the question is not so much whether there is a contribution as to whether that contribution is significant enough to be audible. It seems like these changes would be minute. Well, yes, but then so are the the rest of the signals we are amplifying. How small a change is audible after you've pumped it through a gain factor of say 100 or so? If you consider higher frequencies, where there is very little power, many many vibrations a second, and the ear is quite discerning, then relatively small changes compared to the fundamental are clearly audible on a clean enough system - think about how picky even moderate audio geeks are about midrange coloration in hifi systems. Changes in the moisture content of a system, or chemical changes to (for example) oils which affect chain packing density and flexibility are relatively big changes when it comes to resonance and stiffness characteristics.

So what about those infinite variation possibilities created by setup, different individual bits of wood, string age etc? Surely they'd dwarf any difference? Err, not really. There may be an infinite number of fractions between 0 and 1, but none of them are any more than 1! Each variable will have a characteristic range within which it acts, eg you can't duplicate the effect of new 50-110s by altering pickup/wood combinations on a knackered set of 45-95s. Similarly any chemical changes that wood undergoes are not going to be random, and are going to have an effect on the system over time that is not duplicable (sp?) elsewhere. Of course, it is technically possible for wood to both absorb and lose moisture over time but I'd imagine that in the vast majority of cases with guitars stored in homes they will lose moisture. Living wood is of course full of the stuff but even wood that has been seasoned for a while probably hasn't reached equilibrium throughout if it is a thick lump, diffusion rates through the material are going to be quite slow. This slow rate applies to air exposure of the material too, which as it dries out allowing access to (particularly) oxygen will lead to chemical changes. You only need to look at old timber beams in buildings to see how they blacken up and harden over the years! They do that irrespective of soot depositing.

Having very tediously said all that, I'm not actually sure if the age of wood does have a significant effect on tone. I just wanted to point out that it's perfectly possible that it does and that it would probably be largely consistent within a particular context. Whether it would be musical for a given guitar would depend on other factors, perhaps most significantly the wood type you started with and whether the change exaggerated or masked the particular desirable characteristics of that wood in the first place. Any changes would of course be more audible the cleaner your sound, as with pretty much anything else - if you have a dirty and/or effects-laden sound then even the wood and pickup type might be more or less immaterial!

Cheers all I hope that isn't too much a rehash of what's been said before.
 
Without disrespect, since your posts have been very helpful to me as a lurker (thanks btw), -1!

As a scientist (albeit in a totally different field) I feel that when people talk about variables in this manner they are misunderstanding the nature of different types of variables and the quality of different types of evidence.

I suspect wood age could well affect tone. And that the chemical/structural nature of the changes would in many cases be similar across a broad range of wood types - they're all lignin, cellulose, oils and water after all. Thus although the effect would not be constant it would certainly be similar and the trend would be towards a particular effect.
Wood age certainly improves the tone of acoustic guitars, that is generally accepted by musicians (who although not scientists do generally have the best, most discerning ear for their instruments) and by many makers I know of. Probably this effect has been examined in the scientific literature since it is commercially relevant though I don't fancy doing a search and review right now! People's experiences are worthwhile subject for discussion since they are the best type of evidence available in terms of audibility short of using measurement mics in an unfeasibly controlled experiment.

The 'thousand different woods and set-up' etc etc argument is used again and again on web fora as a 'myth debunking' argument, even in extreme cases I've seen on here to argue that wood type has no reproducible effect on electric bass/guitar tone, which is audibly and scientifically complete rubbish. It's a bit long-winded but I think it's worth going over why this is the case here. People forget that the resonance of the system AS A WHOLE is what gets amplified. The string/pickup coupling is the point at which the signal gets fed into the preamp but the string vibration will be damped to different degrees by whatever it's mounted to, ie the wooden body of the instrument via the bridge. In the case of wood type, these effects can be demonstrated to be audible by the performance of identically mounted strings of the same type set in tension within different wood types (via metal pegs if you like). Woods that vibrate to different degrees will dissipate string energy faster making the initial acoustic output louder and causing a faster global decay. It follows that resonance behaviour at multiple frequencies will damp different string harmonics to different degrees, hence changing tone.

Sorry if all that seems obvious, indeed first principles, but people often neglect it completely in these discussions! So on to wood age. Now, as people have pointed out the question is not so much whether there is a contribution as to whether that contribution is significant enough to be audible. It seems like these changes would be minute. Well, yes, but then so are the the rest of the signals we are amplifying. How small a change is audible after you've pumped it through a gain factor of say 100 or so? If you consider higher frequencies, where there is very little power, many many vibrations a second, and the ear is quite discerning, then relatively small changes compared to the fundamental are clearly audible on a clean enough system - think about how picky even moderate audio geeks are about midrange coloration in hifi systems. Changes in the moisture content of a system, or chemical changes to (for example) oils which affect chain packing density and flexibility are relatively big changes when it comes to resonance and stiffness characteristics.

So what about those infinite variation possibilities created by setup, different individual bits of wood, string age etc? Surely they'd dwarf any difference? Err, not really. There may be an infinite number of fractions between 0 and 1, but none of them are any more than 1! Each variable will have a characteristic range within which it acts, eg you can't duplicate the effect of new 50-110s by altering pickup/wood combinations on a knackered set of 45-95s. Similarly any chemical changes that wood undergoes are not going to be random, and are going to have an effect on the system over time that is not duplicable (sp?) elsewhere. Of course, it is technically possible for wood to both absorb and lose moisture over time but I'd imagine that in the vast majority of cases with guitars stored in homes they will lose moisture. Living wood is of course full of the stuff but even wood that has been seasoned for a while probably hasn't reached equilibrium throughout if it is a thick lump, diffusion rates through the material are going to be quite slow. This slow rate applies to air exposure of the material too, which as it dries out allowing access to (particularly) oxygen will lead to chemical changes. You only need to look at old timber beams in buildings to see how they blacken up and harden over the years! They do that irrespective of soot depositing.

Having very tediously said all that, I'm not actually sure if the age of wood does have a significant effect on tone. I just wanted to point out that it's perfectly possible that it does and that it would probably be largely consistent within a particular context. Whether it would be musical for a given guitar would depend on other factors, perhaps most significantly the wood type you started with and whether the change exaggerated or masked the particular desirable characteristics of that wood in the first place. Any changes would of course be more audible the cleaner your sound, as with pretty much anything else - if you have a dirty and/or effects-laden sound then even the wood and pickup type might be more or less immaterial!

Cheers all I hope that isn't too much a rehash of what's been said before.

Now THIS should be a sticky...brilliantly stated.

Cheers,
Cameron
 
Now THIS should be a sticky...brilliantly stated.

Cheers,
Cameron

Nah... no offense, but he basically said... 'it might and it might not', which is what everyone basically posts. No one says wood doesn't change, but there is NO indication in any literature that I'm familiar with that the change is acoustically noticable, nor that it is always in the positive direction.

The main point is, the idea that 'aging wood' results in a general positive effect (always positive..which makes me chuckle as the scientist that I am during my 'non bass' hours) is most likely wishful thinking.

There is nothing that I know of that indicates that 'aging' should in any way result in the universal positive tonal results that 99% of people who 'think' they hear a difference report. Now if 50% say that it strongly improves the tone, and 50% say that it has a negative impact, then I might think something is going on (i.e., a meaningful, if random, impact on tone).

Whenever there is virtually no proof in a scientific sense that an effect is real, and then you get 90%+ people stating that the 'believe it is a positive effect', my alarm goes off;)
 
ya know, some of this is gonna be "to each his (her) own" . . .

fer instance, back in the day, i'd go into guitar shops and play some 60s fender stuff versus the then-new 1972 p-basses and so forth. at that point, i thought those 70s basses were shite in comparison to the 65-68 basses that were also on display. at that point, they sounded and felt worse *from my personal vantage point*. now they're "vintage" and highly sought after (go figure).

so . . . something's different now: either the basses haven't changed and people like the sound, or something about the instrument has changed . . . for whatever reason. i'm sure there are more possibilities, but these come to mind.
 
Nah... no offense, but he basically said... 'it might and it might not', which is what everyone basically posts. No one says wood doesn't change, but there is NO indication in any literature that I'm familiar with that the change is acoustically noticable, nor that it is always in the positive direction.

Not quite - what I was getting at was that there are fair reasons to expect a change. I also said that the anecdotal evidence of huge numbers of musicians and luthiers is fair evidence. Of course direct systematic measurement (not of the subjective nature but of its effect on tone and audibility) could disprove it but I have not seen this evidence. Therefore a fair working hypothesis would be that it DOES have an effect.

The main point is, the idea that 'aging wood' results in a general positive effect (always positive..which makes me chuckle as the scientist that I am during my 'non bass' hours) is most likely wishful thinking.

There is consensus about the merits or otherwise of many processes that affect tone (not universal, but consensus). Similarly the better examples of the eponymous Stradivari violins are acclaimed as the best violins ever - even if not the best, people would say they are very good indeed. Hence while tone is subjective, there are obviously some qualities that for whateever reason most of us prize. Why shouldn't there be similar consensus one way or the other on the effect of aging? Which as I said could reasonably expected to have the same type of effect in most cases. We all get wrinkly as we get old! Unless you're Californian of course.

There is nothing that I know of that indicates that 'aging' should in any way result in the universal positive tonal results that 99% of people who 'think' they hear a difference report. Now if 50% say that it strongly improves the tone, and 50% say that it has a negative impact, then I might think something is going on (i.e., a meaningful, if random, impact on tone).

Whenever there is virtually no proof in a scientific sense that an effect is real, and then you get 90%+ people stating that the 'believe it is a positive effect', my alarm goes off;)

I think the consistent testimony of an effect from people who know their instruments pretty well is pretty good evidence that SOMETHING is going on that's worth investigating/debating, especially given that wood is probably made of more complex reactive substances than anything else in the system. Empirical proof isn't all or nothing in that sense, much as a more didactic understanding of facts would imply.

If I had to bet one way or the other based on what the current evidence is as far as I know (and there is likely to be some research), I'd bet it DOES have a very subtle audible effect. This is a guess, but it's a reasoned one.
 
Oh and again no disrespect intended! Your posts on the tonal differences between amps (which often differ in pretty subtle ways from one another I'd have thought) have helped me no end :)

Your post above is very good IMO and +1 to many of your points. I was actually tweaking Cameron a little, since he is one who believes a couple years of playing an instrument significantly changes it:D
 
This exact same arguement, i.e. "There's no scientific proof whatsoever, but a lot of knowledgeable people say it's so" can be used to prove the existence of God. Yet still there are skeptics...




Not quite - what I was getting at was that there are fair reasons to expect a change. I also said that the anecdotal evidence of huge numbers of musicians and luthiers is fair evidence. Of course direct systematic measurement (not of the subjective nature but of its effect on tone and audibility) could disprove it but I have not seen this evidence. Therefore a fair working hypothesis would be that it DOES have an effect.



There is consensus about the merits or otherwise of many processes that affect tone (not universal, but consensus). Similarly the better examples of the eponymous Stradivari violins are acclaimed as the best violins ever - even if not the best, people would say they are very good indeed. Hence while tone is subjective, there are obviously some qualities that for whateever reason most of us prize. Why shouldn't there be similar consensus one way or the other on the effect of aging? Which as I said could reasonably expected to have the same type of effect in most cases. We all get wrinkly as we get old! Unless you're Californian of course.



I think the consistent testimony of an effect from people who know their instruments pretty well is pretty good evidence that SOMETHING is going on that's worth investigating/debating, especially given that wood is probably made of more complex reactive substances than anything else in the system. Empirical proof isn't all or nothing in that sense, much as a more didactic understanding of facts would imply.

If I had to bet one way or the other based on what the current evidence is as far as I know (and there is likely to be some research), I'd bet it DOES have a very subtle audible effect. This is a guess, but it's a reasoned one.
 
Nah... no offense, but he basically said... 'it might and it might not', which is what everyone basically posts. No one says wood doesn't change, but there is NO indication in any literature that I'm familiar with that the change is acoustically noticable, nor that it is always in the positive direction.

The main point is, the idea that 'aging wood' results in a general positive effect (always positive..which makes me chuckle as the scientist that I am during my 'non bass' hours) is most likely wishful thinking.

There is nothing that I know of that indicates that 'aging' should in any way result in the universal positive tonal results that 99% of people who 'think' they hear a difference report. Now if 50% say that it strongly improves the tone, and 50% say that it has a negative impact, then I might think something is going on (i.e., a meaningful, if random, impact on tone).

Whenever there is virtually no proof in a scientific sense that an effect is real, and then you get 90%+ people stating that the 'believe it is a positive effect', my alarm goes off;)

As you break them in, they get easier and easier to close, and attain the shape they need to catch balls well. I firmly believe, based on 40 years of bass playing, two degrees in music, owning 20+ basses, playing hundreds, and talking to dozens if not hundreds of players and professors of ALL string instruments, luthiers, and repairmen, that the wood in ALL instruments changes, and it's usually to the benefit of a vibrating string. Just like a baseball glove.

A few may develope problems, or problem 'areas', but generally they get better till they reach their 'potential'.

Objects in motion, etc. More is better.

Cheers,
Cameron
 

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