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Does playing an instrument make you a musician?
- Thread starter Samthebassist
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Not to start another definition argument but, I'm wondering what you mean by 'musical literacy'. The music *is* the language, not all of the symbology and systems we surround it with in order to understand and categorize it. So to me, if you can and do produce music (by any means and by any definition of 'music'), you are by definition 'musically literate' and deserve to be referred to as a 'musician'.
There is a lot of talk about circumstances in which one can 'introduce themselves' as a musician. That is a specific situation and implies a certain importance of the term. so, if someone introduces themselves as a musician, I expect that then spend the majority of their time doing that, otherwise they would have chosen something else to identify with.
To me the litmus test is simple: Answer this question honestly for yourself. "Do you produce music?" If you answer yes, you are a musician.
While I understand your point, I'd like to shed light on what I mean by the term 'musical literacy'. Just as a person can speak before they learn grammar or spelling, so can a person play before they learn notation or musical terminology. While one may be fully capable of expressing themselves, both verbally and musically, that does not necessarily equate to being literate.
Again - part of my point of view includes qualifying exactly what is meant by the term 'musician'. If we take it at it's most simplistic definition, anyone who can produce music by whatever means is technically a musician. If the term musician is taken to mean a person has a certain literacy in the language of music, it then mean that person can not only produce music but they can also read and communicate musical ideas using musical terminology and notation.
One could argue that anyone can produce music - even if they have never picked up an instrument or taken a lesson. A person may be able to sing the tune "Happy Birthday" - by what some are saying here, that person is a musician. I'd say that person is doing what a musician does but is not necessarily a musician.
Gaaahhhh....
After reading over 11 pages of this (I'll admit, I didn't read all 13 pages), I want part of my life back. I kept telling myself to just walk away.
Who cares. It's a label. Whether you're a musician (instrumentalist/whatever), it doesn't matter. What does matter is what you do with it. Example: If I'm a mechanic, but I'm not currently working as a mechanic, is it fair to refer to myself as a mechanic? What if I'm retired? What if I'm a mechanic, but employed as a janitor? Am I still a mechanic? Does anyone even care?
Bah.
Another issue I have with this thread is the OP keeps agreeing with others who make a generalized statement usually involving an aspiring musician/artist/passionately-involved-noise-maker who then is allowed to define themselves as a musician based soley on intent.
Lastly, who cares? If Nick wants to call himself a bassist, then let him. I've met many people who have put their heart and soul into their instrument, and they suck. I've also met people who don't put anytime or effort into their instrument, and they play as if God himself loaned his ability to them. Which one is the musician? Does it really matter?
No.
And finally, the true definition of a musician is(drumroll):
(I can't post in TB without adding some humor. It's just not my style.)
God, I hate leet speak.
After reading over 11 pages of this (I'll admit, I didn't read all 13 pages), I want part of my life back. I kept telling myself to just walk away.
Who cares. It's a label. Whether you're a musician (instrumentalist/whatever), it doesn't matter. What does matter is what you do with it. Example: If I'm a mechanic, but I'm not currently working as a mechanic, is it fair to refer to myself as a mechanic? What if I'm retired? What if I'm a mechanic, but employed as a janitor? Am I still a mechanic? Does anyone even care?
Bah.
Another issue I have with this thread is the OP keeps agreeing with others who make a generalized statement usually involving an aspiring musician/artist/passionately-involved-noise-maker who then is allowed to define themselves as a musician based soley on intent.
Doesn't this contradict what you were saying about your friend Nick in the original post?
(snip)then during lunch, we started to get into this argument about how he thinks that just because you play an instrument, that makes you a musician.
Me- Just because you play an instrument, doesnt mean you're a musician
Nick- Uhh yeah it does
Me- umm..NO IT DOESNT. you play violin, you're a violinist. You play it everyday in orchestra, and basicly, in your free time. I know you luv it to death, and youre good at it (compared to some of the other members of the orch.)
Nick- I'm also a bassist
Me- No youre not!
Nick- *shocked look on his face*Yes i am!
Me- dude, no your not, you almost never play, and one time you got 4th chair, out of 3 people! u never practice. You're not dedicated enough. Just because u pick up an instrument, that doesnt make you a musician
Nick- uhh yeah it does
Me- you're an idiot.....
GOSH....so as far as he's concerned, anyone who can play anything on an instrument makes them a (insert insrument here)-ist. He is such an ignoramus. He doesnt know the meaning of musician.
I do not want to seem like the bad guy here people, cause im not. He thinks he so much better then I. He's second to last in orch. people, wut makes him so special??
Now i know you dont have 2 be the best to be a musician, and it may seem like i was saying that u do have to be the best. I dont think that you do, but just the way he acts, theres no way he has the heart and sole to be a bassist.
(/end snip)
Lastly, who cares? If Nick wants to call himself a bassist, then let him. I've met many people who have put their heart and soul into their instrument, and they suck. I've also met people who don't put anytime or effort into their instrument, and they play as if God himself loaned his ability to them. Which one is the musician? Does it really matter?
No.
And finally, the true definition of a musician is(drumroll):
N E 1 between age 14 and 18 who is r0xx0rz at teh instramint of their choice and us3s l337 speak!!!!111!!!1!
(and uses the word w00t)
(and uses the word w00t)
(I can't post in TB without adding some humor. It's just not my style.)
God, I hate leet speak.
do you have a problem with me buddy?!
i only agree with ones that have some sort of reference to my idea of a musician....
i dont know y u have to come in here...bash on me...and ruin the mood....take your pityness elsewhere.
and for the whole "nick" thing....
y should i let some noob come in and let him call himself a bassist when he has done nothing to deserve it!
When i think he's good and ready.....I'll tell him that he's a bassist....now dont get the idea that i think im like...the god of naming people bassists. But this is my turf...and by my turf i mean my schools orchestra. I'm the 1st chair bassist...and i make the rules for the section. Again..im not high and mighty....but i cant just let any1 just hop into the awesome train and let them call themselves bassists. Thats like...against my beliefs. He's gotta prove himself. And he cannot do that by never playing the bass, not loving it as much as he should, and not practicing.
Thats like me just starting the viola (the only orchestral instrument i dont play) and the 1st day of learning...i call myself a violist. Thats just wrong.
As i stated before...I'm the big cahoona of the bass section. What i say goes. I'm sorry but hes just a noob...a wannabe. I'm fine with him wanting to b a bassist...but he cant just call himself a bassist. It takes credit away from those who work for that title.
I'm going to post a poll...on which side you think is right....or who you think is better/right.
Seriously buddy...lay off....
i only agree with ones that have some sort of reference to my idea of a musician....
i dont know y u have to come in here...bash on me...and ruin the mood....take your pityness elsewhere.
and for the whole "nick" thing....
y should i let some noob come in and let him call himself a bassist when he has done nothing to deserve it!
When i think he's good and ready.....I'll tell him that he's a bassist....now dont get the idea that i think im like...the god of naming people bassists. But this is my turf...and by my turf i mean my schools orchestra. I'm the 1st chair bassist...and i make the rules for the section. Again..im not high and mighty....but i cant just let any1 just hop into the awesome train and let them call themselves bassists. Thats like...against my beliefs. He's gotta prove himself. And he cannot do that by never playing the bass, not loving it as much as he should, and not practicing.
Thats like me just starting the viola (the only orchestral instrument i dont play) and the 1st day of learning...i call myself a violist. Thats just wrong.
As i stated before...I'm the big cahoona of the bass section. What i say goes. I'm sorry but hes just a noob...a wannabe. I'm fine with him wanting to b a bassist...but he cant just call himself a bassist. It takes credit away from those who work for that title.
I'm going to post a poll...on which side you think is right....or who you think is better/right.
Seriously buddy...lay off....
Samthebassist,
While I find this whole debate to be a little tedious and it's true that it's just a label, you're starting to sound a little ego-centric with the "I'll tell him when he's a bassist" talk.
Passion is one thing, and I am glad you are passionate about your role in the world of music. Try to stay focused on yourself. Whether it's a poser trying to claim he's a musician or another person posting in your thread, people will say what they want and the only way it has any relevance is if you buy into it and play along. Why does it matter so much to you what some knucklehead wants to call himself?
If some dude wants to call himself a musician say to him, "Good for you! Music is a good thing and more people should get into it!" Trying to point out to him how he's really not is just not your role. Everyone is someone else's delusional wannabe, ya know?
Doc, I think the horse is dead. What say we bury this one and find a live one to ride?
While I find this whole debate to be a little tedious and it's true that it's just a label, you're starting to sound a little ego-centric with the "I'll tell him when he's a bassist" talk.
Passion is one thing, and I am glad you are passionate about your role in the world of music. Try to stay focused on yourself. Whether it's a poser trying to claim he's a musician or another person posting in your thread, people will say what they want and the only way it has any relevance is if you buy into it and play along. Why does it matter so much to you what some knucklehead wants to call himself?
If some dude wants to call himself a musician say to him, "Good for you! Music is a good thing and more people should get into it!" Trying to point out to him how he's really not is just not your role. Everyone is someone else's delusional wannabe, ya know?
Doc, I think the horse is dead. What say we bury this one and find a live one to ride?
ok i am not egocentric. Thats y i said i didnt want to sound like i was calling myself the bassist god.
But seriously..if you met this guy...you'd be like wow..poser.
It may just be a label..but its a label i'm more then proud to b. I worked hard to be the bassist i am. And i'm not going to let some punk come in and think he's the next big thing to hit music land.
Now i wna tto draw your attention to another bassist at my school. His name is Mitchell but ever1 calls him louie after i dubbed him the nickname.
He's a sevie...a 7th grader for those of you who dont know. I was the one chosen to teach him how to play the bass. Now he's a short little thing. Quiet and shy..but spunky!
I luv the little guy! He's one of my best friends now! He may not be the best...but he tried very hard, and is very dedicated..i know he practices all the time. And it comes out in his playing! He's very passionate about it. And we make jokes about how the bass is the best instrument of all time.(although thats no joke) (to tell you the truth..most of my friends agree with us....)
I have no problem calling him a bassist. Becuase its obvious. He loves it and is really passionate about music.
He's a bassist...Nick is not.
Louie, just like myself...worked for the title!
Some kid from down the block with a cocky attitude is not going to just come and take that hard earned title from Louie and myself. Its just not fair.
As i've stated time after time after time.....I'm totaly fine with Nick bein a bassist. But i dont think that he should just make himself a bassist out of nowhere. He wants to be a bassist...RIGHT ON!!! i luv havin bassists to talk to and to play with. But he really does need to work like every1 else in the orchestra.
He's deffinently a violinist. But i'm no tgonna get back on that..just read the OP......
Thing is... a "musician" is a term, not a title. It's not a degreed letter. It's not a job. It's really kind of a subjective thing to agree on. My noisemaker may be your musician.
It has nothing really to do with the quality of the music, the talent of the player or the amount of money you do or do not make. It has nothing to do with your level of knowledge, quantity of training or REASONS for playing music. There are obviously millions of levels of musicianship, but the base term "musician" by literal definition, covers pretty much every person who plays music.
It's crazy that this is a 13 page thread.
The greenest and newest noob on this board who aspires to one day play on more than one string and earn some free beer at the local biker dive is a musician so long as he's actually playing music, singing music etc. His level of musicianship pales in comparison to almost anyone, but the term for what he does doesn't change.
It has nothing really to do with the quality of the music, the talent of the player or the amount of money you do or do not make. It has nothing to do with your level of knowledge, quantity of training or REASONS for playing music. There are obviously millions of levels of musicianship, but the base term "musician" by literal definition, covers pretty much every person who plays music.
It's crazy that this is a 13 page thread.
The greenest and newest noob on this board who aspires to one day play on more than one string and earn some free beer at the local biker dive is a musician so long as he's actually playing music, singing music etc. His level of musicianship pales in comparison to almost anyone, but the term for what he does doesn't change.
As much as I like this definition, it's not quite how I feel on the subject. If you play an instrument, it makes you an instrumentalist, with the exception of voice in which you are a vocalist/singer. My definition of musician is someone that not only plays music, but writes it, studies it, etc. Someone who is fairly devoted to the music, as opposed to the instrument. Anyone can play piano/bass/whatever music, but a musician can write it. JMHO
I feel I should note that, given that definition, I'm not a musician
In spirit I agree with you - but the dictionary definition of the word "musician" does contemplate some degree of skill.
well the dictionary can s*ck it.
I like some of the points he made...i write music...but i dont htink thats the only think that makes up a musician.
I guess you don't think that Merriam-Webster is actually a dictionary?
to quote:
musician
Main Entry: mu·si·cian
Pronunciation: \myü-ˈzi-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist
mu·si·cian·ly \-lē\ adjective
mu·si·cian·ship \-ˌship\ noun
Where is skill? Or whether you get PAID suggested in this definition?
In fact, instrumentalist is a synonym.
Yes, I'll keep repeating it until it sinks in.
Musician is a very loose definition. No snobs here can suggest that it has to do with anything but PLAYING, COMPOSING OR CONDUCTING MUSIC OF ANY KIND - GOOD, BAD, GREAT OR HORRIBLE.
Rickett Customs
Commercial User
No vote, I think a carrot option would have you both outvoted at this point.
IME, sam, I think you need to work on that entitlement of being a "bass leader" or "big kahuna" and define it with your fingers, rather than stating it, ask any of the guys here that teach.
**none of this, I state is any sort of attack, although "constructive criticism" is never taken that same, from person to person**
It seems like you want to look down on someone for claiming to be a bassplayer (correct me if i'm making an error), which may or may not make you come off with what feels like an ego (is this too strong of a word?) to me. Also, you don't have to act as if someone has a "problem" with you if they disagree with your mannerisms, this is TB. You sort of remind me a little of myself, for the first few years of playing bass (the first 5 or 6 years), which I did have a similar ideal to that which you speak of, I later realized that knowing how to play bass is one thing, but there is way more to bass playing, than just playing it (if this last sentence does not make sense, being more humble will not hurt you in any aspect).
But if this is not the case,sam, I've been known to be wrong.
So if you feel the need to call me a "hater" or whatever, go ahead, i'm just speaking from a little experience. I have no problems with you or the question of what makes a musician I just want you to take a look at how this is viewed in another perspective.
Remember, not everyone that currently plays bass, started as a bass player. The way you talk about Noobs, makes you sound like a Noob.(IMO)
....and only if you feel like this is a bash on you or somebody's "hatin' " on you, then I suppose I'm full of crap, then disregard this and guard your "turf", case it won't be too long down the road before that "fishbowl turns into an ocean" (IME).
My final definition of a musician.......
Musician= a person that plays an instrument and expresses them self through it.
IME, sam, I think you need to work on that entitlement of being a "bass leader" or "big kahuna" and define it with your fingers, rather than stating it, ask any of the guys here that teach.
**none of this, I state is any sort of attack, although "constructive criticism" is never taken that same, from person to person**
It seems like you want to look down on someone for claiming to be a bassplayer (correct me if i'm making an error), which may or may not make you come off with what feels like an ego (is this too strong of a word?) to me. Also, you don't have to act as if someone has a "problem" with you if they disagree with your mannerisms, this is TB. You sort of remind me a little of myself, for the first few years of playing bass (the first 5 or 6 years), which I did have a similar ideal to that which you speak of, I later realized that knowing how to play bass is one thing, but there is way more to bass playing, than just playing it (if this last sentence does not make sense, being more humble will not hurt you in any aspect).
But if this is not the case,sam, I've been known to be wrong.
So if you feel the need to call me a "hater" or whatever, go ahead, i'm just speaking from a little experience. I have no problems with you or the question of what makes a musician
I just want you to take a look at how this is viewed in another perspective. Remember, not everyone that currently plays bass, started as a bass player. The way you talk about Noobs, makes you sound like a Noob.(IMO)
....and only if you feel like this is a bash on you or somebody's "hatin' " on you, then I suppose I'm full of crap, then disregard this and guard your "turf", case it won't be too long down the road before that "fishbowl turns into an ocean" (IME).
My final definition of a musician.......
Musician= a person that plays an instrument and expresses them self through it.
do you have a problem with me buddy?!
i only agree with ones that have some sort of reference to my idea of a musician....
i dont know y u have to come in here...bash on me...and ruin the mood....take your pityness elsewhere.
and for the whole "nick" thing....
y should i let some noob come in and let him call himself a bassist when he has done nothing to deserve it!
When i think he's good and ready.....I'll tell him that he's a bassist....now dont get the idea that i think im like...the god of naming people bassists. But this is my turf...and by my turf i mean my schools orchestra. I'm the 1st chair bassist...and i make the rules for the section. Again..im not high and mighty....but i cant just let any1 just hop into the awesome train and let them call themselves bassists. Thats like...against my beliefs. He's gotta prove himself. And he cannot do that by never playing the bass, not loving it as much as he should, and not practicing.
Thats like me just starting the viola (the only orchestral instrument i dont play) and the 1st day of learning...i call myself a violist. Thats just wrong.
As i stated before...I'm the big cahoona of the bass section. What i say goes. I'm sorry but hes just a noob...a wannabe. I'm fine with him wanting to b a bassist...but he cant just call himself a bassist. It takes credit away from those who work for that title.
I'm going to post a poll...on which side you think is right....or who you think is better/right.
Seriously buddy...lay off....
Okay, just wandered in here (and I think I'll wander back out) but please just tell me the post above is sombody teasin'. Please?
JKT
Hilarious thread.
A musician is someone who creates music. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't have to get paid for it or even be good at it. As long as he is creating music (deliberately), he is a musician.
If it's your job, you're a professional musician, if it's your hobby, you're an amateur musician. If you're not very good at it, but are practicing to get better, you're an aspiring musician. Blah, blah, blah.
Quit trying to limit the definition to exclude others and lord it over them. There will always be someone better than you who could do the same.
A musician is someone who creates music. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't have to get paid for it or even be good at it. As long as he is creating music (deliberately), he is a musician.
If it's your job, you're a professional musician, if it's your hobby, you're an amateur musician. If you're not very good at it, but are practicing to get better, you're an aspiring musician. Blah, blah, blah.
Quit trying to limit the definition to exclude others and lord it over them. There will always be someone better than you who could do the same.
from a blog i wrote
Do you make music or play an instrument? When you play does the music in your heart come out or are you in fact simply playing your instrument. Think of your music as you would your voice. When you speak English you have nouns, verbs, subjects, pronouns, adverbs, adjectives, and other things. You have your mouth, tongue, throat, nasal passages, vocal cords, teeth, and brain. All these things and more contribute to getting across the message you wish to convey to whoever is listening.
As a speaker of English you most likely have used several thousand words since you learned to speak. When you were a baby you made baby noises and you imitated the voices you heard. Your parents didn't attempt to teach you about parts of speech or your vocal cords when you were in the crib, never the less in a couple years you developed the ability to speak and be understood. You simply imitated the voices you heard and developed your own language. It is the same when you learn a musical instrument. The first couple years are spent learning how to make sounds and a vocabulary for that instrument, but you must stop playing an instrument and begin making music.
When you have a conversation with your friends, parents , pastor, relatives or whoever what would happen if you had to think about your phrasing, tongue movements, or how many verbs were in your sentences? I think that if you tried that you would sound terrible and you would not be able to get your message across clearly. I find myself thinking like this when I play bass. I think about what key I am in or what might sound good and I am back to playing bass instead of making music. It is a difficult habit to break at first but once you get the hang of it you will play better than ever and music will finally be a genuine language that you speak.
Do you make music or play an instrument? When you play does the music in your heart come out or are you in fact simply playing your instrument. Think of your music as you would your voice. When you speak English you have nouns, verbs, subjects, pronouns, adverbs, adjectives, and other things. You have your mouth, tongue, throat, nasal passages, vocal cords, teeth, and brain. All these things and more contribute to getting across the message you wish to convey to whoever is listening.
As a speaker of English you most likely have used several thousand words since you learned to speak. When you were a baby you made baby noises and you imitated the voices you heard. Your parents didn't attempt to teach you about parts of speech or your vocal cords when you were in the crib, never the less in a couple years you developed the ability to speak and be understood. You simply imitated the voices you heard and developed your own language. It is the same when you learn a musical instrument. The first couple years are spent learning how to make sounds and a vocabulary for that instrument, but you must stop playing an instrument and begin making music.
When you have a conversation with your friends, parents , pastor, relatives or whoever what would happen if you had to think about your phrasing, tongue movements, or how many verbs were in your sentences? I think that if you tried that you would sound terrible and you would not be able to get your message across clearly. I find myself thinking like this when I play bass. I think about what key I am in or what might sound good and I am back to playing bass instead of making music. It is a difficult habit to break at first but once you get the hang of it you will play better than ever and music will finally be a genuine language that you speak.
By this discussion's logic, a writer can technically be described as anyone who writes, right?
Hey, I wrote this - I am a writer! I need to update my resume'!
Consider this scenario: You are a boss looking over a person's resume' who described himself as a "musician" and you ask that person, "If I handed you sheet music of a very simple melody, would you be able to play it?" - and that person said, "Well, no. I can play guitar, but I cannot read music." How would you feel about that person choosing to describe himself as a "musician"?
Similarly, if that same person described himself as a "writer" and you asked if he could write a simple sentence, grammatically correct sentence and he said, "Well I can write a sentence, but I am not sure if it will be grammatically correct." How would you feel about his use of the description "writer"?
Hey, I wrote this - I am a writer! I need to update my resume'!
Consider this scenario: You are a boss looking over a person's resume' who described himself as a "musician" and you ask that person, "If I handed you sheet music of a very simple melody, would you be able to play it?" - and that person said, "Well, no. I can play guitar, but I cannot read music." How would you feel about that person choosing to describe himself as a "musician"?
Similarly, if that same person described himself as a "writer" and you asked if he could write a simple sentence, grammatically correct sentence and he said, "Well I can write a sentence, but I am not sure if it will be grammatically correct." How would you feel about his use of the description "writer"?
i think of english almost the same as music
a person can speak english but not read it
same with music they would still be a musician
i know a few players who are amazing but they cant read sheet music
a person can speak english but not read it
same with music they would still be a musician
i know a few players who are amazing but they cant read sheet music
I am not trying to be antagonistic, but it seems to me that you consider them "players".
Seems very much the same as trying to define a person who is functionally illiterate as a "writer" as opposed to a "story teller".
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