Double Bass Does thrashing around while you play do any good?

[angelika]

cold Elephant, I hope that you will have the chance to hear Mr. Tuneh live, so you can understand how XXXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXX your arguments are!
funny for someone who doesn't care, how would you call to your reaction?

Till than hope you can sleep at night...

G-Force, please learn to read:

"world premiere as an un-transcribed version...."

Best

angelika

 

[Jimnastix]

+1 Chicago doubler. The armchair is the best place to critique from!
I probably wouldn't buy his record, but at least he's got one on the market ;-)

 

[THE SAW]

Let me assure you people of one thing:

This thread is a disgrace and should have been closed and/or REMOVED long ago. What was initially slightly amusing is now a simple display of hatred.

What I think is wonderful is that I guarantee you Mr. Tuneh could not care less about what shows up on this board. However, I find it discouraging and sad.

FWIW,
S.A.W.

 

[G-force]

cold Elephant, I hope that you will have the chance to hear Mr. Tuneh live, so you can understand how XXXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXX your arguments are!
funny for someone who doesn't care, how would you call to your reaction?

Till than hope you can sleep at night...

G-Force, please learn to read:

"world premiere as an un-transcribed version...."

Best

angelika

I understood what was stated.
My english skills are quite adequate thank you. Spreche ich auch ziemlich gut Deutsch. Please, I attempt to keep my comments to a non personal level. Why do you show hostility?
grüße
G

 

[User4843936]

angelika, my problem lies not with Mr. Tuneh (though I've made it clear that I'm not a fan), it lies primarily with you touting his stuff across multiple threads in multiple forums. I believe I said this in the conclusion of my first post in this thread.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Rule #1: Respect your fellow members
All registered users must address fellow members with the utmost respect at all times. If you do not agree with a fellow member, be courteous in your response. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "When I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine".

Because of the limitations of text based communication, the expression of intent can be tricky. One of the most common triggers of rule violations is the misinterpretation of intent behind a post. Use smilies often, and remember, it never hurts to begin a response with "In my opinion"...

If you do not address everyone on the board with respect, be prepared to lose your membership.

Just a reminder to everyone to not make personal insults in public threads. Also, if you find something which seems to break the talkbass rules, please report it rather than commenting on it.

 

[damonsmith]

Well stated. I can post videos of myself holding still while I play, and musical choices I find more aesthetically compelling than "Enter Sandman", but nothing on the technical level Mr. Tuneh is on!
So, lets hear what you guys have!

Yawn.

As I posted months ago, if any of y'all want to post videos of your own superior bass playing, we'd love to see it. We can compare the bassist in question to vids on youtube all day long, and reference personal preference, but this community, myself included, would love to see the naysayers play better.

Critique away, til the cows come home. Post something that approaches Mr. Tuneh's proven record of excellence, and then we stop sounding like lazy yelpers who got a cold potato at an otherwise stellar restaurant.

I'm not saying he's Edgar Meyer, but the respect factor here has dwindled horribly, and once again, "A noble instrument should be regarded nobly."

Haters= lazy, and most possibly, inferior players. True story.

 

[PaulCannon]

Well stated. I can post videos of myself holding still while I play, and musical choices I find more aesthetically compelling than "Enter Sandman", but nothing on the technical level Mr. Tuneh is on!
So, lets hear what you guys have!

As I posted months ago, if any of y'all want to post videos of your own superior bass playing, we'd love to see it. We can compare the bassist in question to vids on youtube all day long, and reference personal preference, but this community, myself included, would love to see the naysayers play better.

This sounds like "tu quoque" to me. Show me a professional critic or music reviewer who can claim to be an objectively better musician than those he critiques. People have their own ears and are entitled to their opinion.

Anyone who releases their product to the public for consumption has opened themselves up to criticism. You can question the motives or credentials of the critic as much as you like, but it does not invalidate their points.

 

[monti2889]

Guy Tuneh

What is going on here?
Can thrashing and writhing around like a pole-dancing flounder really help in ANY way at all?

To me, he's being more visual about his expression of music, nothing "right" or "wrong" about it, just him...if you look at his wrists, he's not compromising his technique. So more power to him, that he can feel AND express the music in both an auditory and visual way.
On a personal note, I think the type of music is relative to the movement you portray, it would be pretty funny to have a big upright like that spinning around at random intervals and the guy just completely going insane running around it and really being a "showman", however in a bluegrass or rock setting that behavior is totally accepted and a lot of times expected. To bring us back to the player in the video, I see his movement as nothing more than a playing "feeling" the music and in my eyes it is acceptable.

 

[damonsmith]

I think the tone is one player criticizing another. If I say, "As a consumer of classical bass music, I am not as interested in Mr Tuneh's work as I am in Jorma Katrma's". That is fair. Outright disses on intonation and performance should be back up, IMO.

This sounds like "tu quoque" to me. Show me a professional critic or music reviewer who can claim to be an objectively better musician than those he critiques. People have their own ears and are entitled to their opinion.

Anyone who releases their product to the public for consumption has opened themselves up to criticism. You can question the motives or credentials of the critic as much as you like, but it does not invalidate their points.

 

[Don Higdon]

I think the tone is one player criticizing another. If I say, "As a consumer of classical bass music, I am not as interested in Mr Tuneh's work as I am in Jorma Katrma's". That is fair. Outright disses on intonation and performance should be back up, IMO.

So you're saying it's impossible to have pitch discrimination unless I'm a better bassist than Tuneh?

 

[chicagodoubler]

Everyone is welcome to their opinions.

Publicly mocking a professional player isn't expressing an opinion. It's simply bad taste. There are notable examples of many seasoned players playing poorly, but critiquing professional players is widely eschewed, as it shows poor rearing and general bad manners.

Once again, "A noble instrument should be nobly regarded."

Can we please shut this down for good, and get back to talking about what sort of strings a winner uses, and how to get into Curtis?

 

[jcorneli]

Guy Tuneh

What is going on here?
Can thrashing and writhing around like a pole-dancing flounder really help in ANY way at all?

Let me guess? You can't dance?

Seriously. Anybody who wonders if this "helps" playing is seriously disconnected from music as anything but an intellectual aesthetic formulation, and possibly also a mechanical skill.

Phunk that! We are talking about music as an expression of something one experiences. An experience that is not limited or circumscribed by mere technical qualities. Music is many things - one of which is a technical language, and another of which can be contact with something that is non-material and defies most any other, grosser communication.

Movement is one of the other ways that this can find an expression - from inchoate swaying... to dance.

So? I'd venture to say Tuneh moves from the same source that he plays. He doesn't move to improve any mere technical aspect of translating his experience of this "source".

For those who require a music that can be reduced in a way that it is explicable in purely mechanical and intellectual way, there is always J.S. Bach.

 

[damonsmith]

So you're saying it's impossible to have pitch discrimination unless I'm a better bassist than Tuneh?

I'd say you'd need to be able to play in tune better, yes. if you say, so and so does THAT better, then it is coming from a different place.
I don't have an issue saying I'd much prefer that he held still and I'd prefer that ALL classical players would STOP trying to play things like Metallica - I still won't pretend his bass playing isn't worthy of respect.
I mean, intonation issues with the Paganini are one thing, there are plenty of videos where he is playing at a very high technical level.

 

[angelika]

jcorneli, only musicians could understand what you mean!

i would like to see some of guys playing (or trying to play...) this Paganini, only to have other perspective of that.

 

[User4843936]

There is no need for me to use videos of my playing, or anyone else's, in this instance, when I can clearly illustrate my frustrations with Guy's playing with examples from his own.

If you were to ask me in 2007-08 whom I thought the most interesting bass players were then this man would definitely have been up there somewhere. Being an ultra-keen-on-bass student, I'd heard most of the Sonnambulas on the internet at the point and quite a few on CD. When I listened to it yesterday, after four more years of Sonnambulas on the internet and wherever else, I still thought the passage from 1.37 to about 3.20 in his video to be one of the better ones in terms of getting into the spirit of this kind of music. Fair enough, I might not be quite so wild about the amount of ricochet bowing (throughout) any more, but there are things in this video that I'd never seen or heard done before, musically, first and foremost, as opposed to technically. Which is why it was of interest. This was particularly refreshing to me as in a music college environment things do tend to get rather insular, and hearing a completely different rendition is what people need to get inspired again from time to time.

However, everything that I found commendable about his earlier efforts serves now to throw into sharper relief everything that is deplorable about these Paganini and Villa-Lobos videos. To my ear they don't seem to show anywhere near the same attention to issues such as basic sound production (both) and intonation (particularly the Paganini) that I would say was present when he made the Sonnambula video. So much so that I would say that anyone who styles themselves a soloist could expect not to be taken seriously after making such efforts public, ESPECIALLY after having had such a good go at standard repertoire and showing considerable skill in doing so. There is none of the same spirit in his playing in the Paganini, and there was clearly never going to be, as logic would dictate that this is impossible when you are incapable of getting half the notes to sound. I really feel that these latest recordings fail completely where the earlier ones succeeded, which is to say for me they have no individual artistic merit. And frankly I defy anyone to say that there is anything useful to take away from listening to that Paganini, other than what I mentioned in my first post in this thread - if you can't make it sound as good as the original, ('good' in this instance means technically poised and musically interesting) then in general you stand to lose face if you go public with it.

Out of interest I linked my Mum to both Sonnambula and Paganini recordings. She isn't a musician, but I find that this means you only lose technical knowledge in the response while gaining quite a lot of honesty. Surprise surprise, she had difficulty believing that the same person could produce such polar opposites. As would anyone with working ears.

If someone turns up on YouTube, in a recital hall, on TV or wherever and plays a recital which doesn't say anything to me musically or technically, then it's not a big deal. However, when someone proves they have some not inconsiderable talent but then goes off on some kind of mad tangent, forsaking every basic thing which made their playing appealing to me, I find this annoying. Selfish, I know, but not unjustified on this occasion I feel. I think I can safely assume everyone here considers it important that as musicians we commit to maintaining standards of excellence, as this is how we enable our tradition to survive. Perhaps my perceptions and tastes has changed since a few years ago as well, but this is what really gets me about these latest videos, especially as such a big deal was apparently made (according to angelika and also Guy Tuneh's website) about this Paganini 'Premiere' (which is also blatantly dishonest, really, after the what G-force said) and apparently other material he's putting out there now. And as I mentioned earlier, with so few of us in the public eye pushing the double bass as a solo instrument, those who do have a responsibility to do it consistently well.

 

[angelika]

For those of You who wish to see Mr. Tuneh "dancing" with his bass:
Acording to Mr. Tuneh official website, he will take part as a performer in the upcoming Samsung Mobile unpacked 2012 event in Berlin, to be broadcasting world wide (even samsung wish to present him "dancing"...).

" 2012.08.29
Chambermusic Germany – Berlin Samsung Mobile unpacked 2012
World wide live broadcasting"

(source: Guy Tuneh Official web)

Best

Angelika.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'd say you'd need to be able to play in tune better, yes.

By this reasoning, bassists could only critique bassists of lesser accomplishment, and a bassist would be unfit to judge a performance on any other instrument for intonation - even if it was completely out of tune - because they don't play that instrument. I don't agree with that at all.

 

[angelika]

@ cold elephant,

Wow, now you made me Curies, is it possible to hear your playing?

"...when I can clearly illustrate my frustrations with Guy's playing..." wow, is it so deep with you? are sure that you are O.k?

Hey, i don't mean to come too close but, i think you shouldn't see the "Samsung Mobile Unpacked 2012" event in which Mr. Tuneh will take part of, even not the videos in you tube that really make you sacrifice your time and energy.
Just let this theme away from You and don't worry the bass world will survive...

Your health is much more important then those things.

best

Angelika

 

[User4843936]

I think a very important point has just been raised here.

I am constantly amazed by this cynical 'oh yeah, well I'd like to see you do better' attitude which as people have rightly pointed out, is prevalent mainly on the classical side of the forums as far as I can tell. I am not a solo bass player. I have no interest in proclaiming myself to be a solo bass player. However, I have studied with some of the best bass players in Europe, if not the world, and I work alongside other musicians of a similar calibre day in, day out, in orchestras up and down the country. This happens to be my profession, and I make a living out of playing with several of the best known orchestras in the UK. I have a first class degree from the Royal Academy in London, and I won the bass prize three years in a row whilst I was there. Does that render me qualified enough to comment? I happen to think, along with several others in on this discussion, that if you put yourself on a pedestal as a professional solo bass player who wants to premiere unusual and new works for the bass, then you owe it to yourself to and to the music to put on a good performance. Anyone should have the right to praise or criticize. I should not be having to deal with abuse from other members of the community because I chose draw on my experience to compare Guy Tuneh to musicians with what I deem to be a preferable and more developed concept of sound and technique. Or for criticizing him according to what I think is acceptable by my own standards.

What should I do, write you all a CV for perusal before my comments are deemed valid? There are one or two people on here who have said nothing to further the debate but who shout the loudest when it comes to leveling baseless assertions of incompetence at those who have expressed and justified their opinions. Frankly, the reasoning behind your requests to see the credentials of anyone expressing an opinion is flawed at best, and, that you could expect anyone would go ahead and comply is rather unlikely. That you could think it is acceptable to call people out based on whether they pique your sense of skepticism or not is flat out ridiculous.

These attitudes, I feel, have felt since I joined talkbass, are the main reason there is such a poor showing from the classical bass players on these forums. There are reams and reams of jazz recordings, submissions, YouTube vids etc, and they all seem to be sensibly received. I know I have expressed strong opinions with regard to Guy Tuneh's recent efforts but read my recent posts and you will understand why. I hope to God that all you people shouting about how my opinions mean nothing until I can show something myself don't actually believe that nonsense reasoning. Can you imagine the state of these forums if everyone thought like that? "Right, well we've got someone who's been playing three months and has posted a video of themselves playing a Bottesini study, so let's all race away to our video cameras and gank each other on the forums with our superior renditions, that'll teach that noob a lesson, ha ha ha."

I honestly wonder what kind of a place this is when it becomes apparent that what I would call common sense, like the above, has to be justified to people before they accept it as being so.