Ebay woes

[scootron]

Fair enough. You are right, when looking at ads in eBay (I am not being sarcastic here), I should have read more into the text of the ad. I should have been using the skills I learned in English class and really tried to understand what the author of the text was really trying to express or what he really actually meant. I should have been a verbal Sherlock Holmes. Like when the seller listed the condition as new, what he really meant was that it would be new to me. And when he said the bass was unused, I should have assumed he meant unused after he used it for a few weeks. I should have also understood that when he said that there was no damage or wear, that he meant no damage or wear except for the damage and wear caused by it being stored without a case, like all mexican fender in the warehouse before it gets shipped out. Also, I should have assumed that the pictures in the ad that didnt show the damage or staining were pictures of the bass when it was first bought, not when he was selling it.

I accept responsibility for assuming that the seller was trying his best to describe the item as well as he could. I guess I shouldn't have taken the guy's words or pictures at face value. So I do take responsibility for that. This did teach me a lesson that I should be more wary of when people sell stuff they call "new". I don't buy instruments on eBay often, but when I have and it was listed as new, it was new. So I was basing my experience on that. So this was the first time I got something that wasn't new when it was listed as new. I don't sell very often, but whenever I sold anything on ebay, I try to take close up pictures of anything that would be different from a completely new product. I take pictures of the smallest things even if you can only see them in a certain light or if you need a magnifying glass to see them. Even if it was like that when it came from the factory. Even if it was caused by the normal typical finishing issues in Mexican fenders. Or at least try to describe it. I have had lots of people tell me that they couldn't even see the imperfections when they got the product. I just assumed people did that, since eBay specifically tells you to do this in their seller guide.

I don't think I have the moral high ground above everyone, but maybe I do with this seller. I would not have sold this bass the way he did. I would have made sure that the buyer knew that before I bought the green one, I played this one. I would not have mentioned the Squier bass or the green bass to allow people to assume that I only used those two basses and not this one. I would not have used the word "unused". I would have taken close up pictures of the stains and ding near the neck. I would have presented the bass as it was and let the buyer decide if they can live with the staining or damage. I would not have used words or phrases that can be read different ways. I would definitely not have listed it as new (other).

It was not buyers remorse. $429 + shipping was a good price for a NEW jag bass, which is what I thought I was buying. $429 is not a good price for a USED jag bass, since I know that I can get them for less than that (at least around here). If I knew that I was getting a USED bass, the staining or damage would not have bothered me. But it was listed as NEW (other). And the condition of the item is not subjective. Ebay has specific definitions for the conditions of items. Again this was in the sellers guide, so I assumed the seller followed eBay's definitions.

Ebay lists new (other) as "A new, unused item with absolutely no signs of wear. The item may be missing the original packaging, or in the original packaging but not sealed. The item may be a factory second or a new, unused item with defects. See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections." [emphasis mine]

So maybe my reading comprehension really isn't up to par, but I assume that when eBay says "unused", they don't mean that you used the item but then it was unused after you got another item to replace it with. Also, I assumed that "any imperfections" included the staining or ding near the neck and the seller would have needed to mention them. But I could be wrong. Maybe eBay's definitions are more subjective than I thought.

I agree with everything you said here. I also would not have sold the bass the way he did, and I would have made sure that all defects were clearly shown. I also don't think this sort of thing will ever happen to you again.

Had I been this guy, I would have immediately asked what you wanted to do, whether you wanted a partial refund or a return. I've done it before. It may sting a little bit in the short run, but in the long run it is worth it to keep a good reputation as a seller or trader.

Ebay is fraught with peril. I haven't bought or sold much since I wandered back to TalkBass after being gone for a few years, but ten years ago this place was the gold standard. People went out of their way to make full disclosure about everything, and everyone bent over backwards to make sure every deal was smooth. (There were exceptions, who were banned for eternity, but these were very rare.)

I was trying to unpack the other side of the equation, not to say that this guy was right and you were wrong. I hope you don't think I was being too harsh. If so, I apologise.

 

[mcnach]

I'd consider the issues the cost of buying a bass on eBay and play the damn thing. If it was little stuff like that you were worried about, you should have messaged the seller asking for detailed, hi res shots of the whole bass and all of the usual "trouble" areas. Excellent+? Yeah, ok. You're lucky it even came in one piece. Seriously...if it came down to my only options to own a MIM Jag being buy it off eBay, or never own one for as long as I live, I'd choose the latter. If it plays GOOD, those issues aren't worth the aggravation, IMO.

There may be small cosmetic issues, but if the seller is lying and acting like a dick, then I might just decide I don't want to let him have my money and refuse the bass. For starters, the bass was misadvertised as 'new'. That alone tells me what kind of seller this is. I would have to want that bass a hell of a lot for me to keep it, happy to give that guy his money.

 

[mcnach]

Okay, you are not trying now.

He bought the bass. A few weeks later, he bought the green bass. Since then, he says, the green bass was all he played. The first bass sat unused. Get that? He didn't say he never used the first bass. He said he didn't use the first bass after buying the second one. It remained "unused" from that point in time. This is reading comprehension.

In any event, you are minimizing the fact that you knew it had been stored in a closet for at least two years without a case.

I noticed that you mentioned more than once that you paid considerably more for this bass than you did your other one. Was there any buyer's remorse here because of that?

You do not seem willing to accept any responsibility for this situation, and anxious to brand the seller as a "liar". You're going to do whatever you are going to do, but don't pretend you are standing alone on the moral high ground.

I disagree.

Seller sold it as 'new/other'. By definition this bass is not new/other. Buyer understood it was not new/other but thought justifiably that it was a bass that had barely been played. Seller claimed no damage. There *is* damage by the neck. Seller is lying through his teeth. Seller got a higher price than he would get if he showed the damage. It may be small, it may be purely cosmetic, but he was being dishonest.

Buyer paid more for this one because it was claimed to be in better condition.

Pretty simple, really.

Seller tries to pull a dick move and backfires. Should have been honest in the first place.

 

[Ralph69]

Here" being eBay? Or "here" being TB?

Here being TB.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yeah. I usually ask really detailed questions like that as well, but I didn't this time because it was listed as new. And I didn't want to annoy the seller since the word "new", at least to me and eBay's definition, was pretty black and white.

So, I imagined the conversation would have gone like this:

Me: Hi, what is the condition of the item?

Seller: It's listed as new.

Me: Is there any damage or wear on it?

Seller: No. It's listed as new.

Me: So was it ever used?

Seller: No. Can't you read? It's listed as new.

Me: So there is no fretwear or staining on it?

Seller: Like I said, it's listed as new.

Me: Is the finish perfect?

Seller: Hey buddy, not sure how else to tell you this. But this is listed as new.

Me: Are there any dings or cracks?

Seller: Jeez. It's listed as new.

Me: Are there any other imperfections or dings?

Seller: For the last time, It's listed as new.

Me: Ohhhhhh ok. I think I get it. So what you are saying is that the bass is new.

Seller (in soup nazi voice): No bass for you!

When the seller doesn't answer specific questions and keeps saying "listed as new", that when I tell myself, in Soup Nazi voice, "No bass for me."

I could chase down a Dung Beetle and list his little treasure "as new".
Just because I list it as new, doesn't mean it is like new.

"The picture of this bass looks like a Dung Beetle ball, what gives?"
"It's listed as new."

-No bass for me-

 

[redramen]

Just an update in case anyone was wondering.

The bass was delivered yesterday and signed for by the seller. The seller initiated a refund today, but did it through paypal as an echeck, so it could take until Oct 10th. I have never heard of refunding through an echeck.

I remember refunding a buyer once because she wanted to buy other items. And when I refunded her, she got her refund immediately. The refund isn't going to break me, but it sucks that I have to wait till Oct 10.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Just an update in case anyone was wondering.

The bass was delivered yesterday and signed for by the seller. The seller initiated a refund today, but did it through paypal as an echeck, so it could take until Oct 10th. I have never heard of refunding through an echeck.

I remember refunding a buyer once because she wanted to buy other items. And when I refunded her, she got her refund immediately. The refund isn't going to break me, but it sucks that I have to wait till Oct 10.

That buyer is a real charmer, isn't he. Please out him so we can avoid him, thanks.

 

[hsech]

If you bought it as "used" or "near new" and it sat in his closet for a long time...... how could you honestly expect a pristine bass. What I see from the pictures is a used bass in good condition. If you wanted brand new, you should have gone to Sweetwater or Musicians Friend. I don't see the problem. Why does that bass rate a negative rating if he accepted the return. I have sold a lot of used guitars and basses on EBay and never had a negative rating or a return for something as minor as that.

 

[dxb]

That buyer is a real charmer, isn't he. Please out him so we can avoid him, thanks.

Do you mean the seller is a real charmer?

 

[dxb]

If you bought it as "used" or "near new" and it sat in his closet for a long time...... how could you honestly expect a pristine bass. What I see from the pictures is a used bass in good condition. If you wanted brand new, you should have gone to Sweetwater or Musicians Friend. I don't see the problem. Why does that bass rate a negative rating if he accepted the return. I have sold a lot of used guitars and basses on EBay and never had a negative rating or a return for something as minor as that.

I think the issue was that the seller listed the bass as new and priced it accordingly. The OP expected a pristine bass because of that and also because the ebay listing included photos of the bass which didn't have any of the scuffs or dings that it had when he received it. And maybe I missed something but did the OP give the seller negative feedback? I've read most of this thread but don't recall seeing that.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Do you mean the seller is a real charmer?

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[Member8675309]

Just an update in case anyone was wondering.

The bass was delivered yesterday and signed for by the seller. The seller initiated a refund today, but did it through paypal as an echeck, so it could take until Oct 10th. I have never heard of refunding through an echeck.

I remember refunding a buyer once because she wanted to buy other items. And when I refunded her, she got her refund immediately. The refund isn't going to break me, but it sucks that I have to wait till Oct 10.

Ha, I knew it.

 

[Member8675309]

Fair enough. You are right, when looking at ads in eBay (I am not being sarcastic here), I should have read more into the text of the ad. I should have been using the skills I learned in English class and really tried to understand what the author of the text was really trying to express or what he really actually meant. I should have been a verbal Sherlock Holmes. Like when the seller listed the condition as new, what he really meant was that it would be new to me. And when he said the bass was unused, I should have assumed he meant unused after he used it for a few weeks. I should have also understood that when he said that there was no damage or wear, that he meant no damage or wear except for the damage and wear caused by it being stored without a case, like all mexican fender in the warehouse before it gets shipped out. Also, I should have assumed that the pictures in the ad that didnt show the damage or staining were pictures of the bass when it was first bought, not when he was selling it.

I accept responsibility for assuming that the seller was trying his best to describe the item as well as he could. I guess I shouldn't have taken the guy's words or pictures at face value. So I do take responsibility for that. This did teach me a lesson that I should be more wary of when people sell stuff they call "new". I don't buy instruments on eBay often, but when I have and it was listed as new, it was new. So I was basing my experience on that. So this was the first time I got something that wasn't new when it was listed as new. I don't sell very often, but whenever I sold anything on ebay, I try to take close up pictures of anything that would be different from a completely new product. I take pictures of the smallest things even if you can only see them in a certain light or if you need a magnifying glass to see them. Even if it was like that when it came from the factory. Even if it was caused by the normal typical finishing issues in Mexican fenders. Or at least try to describe it. I have had lots of people tell me that they couldn't even see the imperfections when they got the product. I just assumed people did that, since eBay specifically tells you to do this in their seller guide.

I don't think I have the moral high ground above everyone, but maybe I do with this seller. I would not have sold this bass the way he did. I would have made sure that the buyer knew that before I bought the green one, I played this one. I would not have mentioned the Squier bass or the green bass to allow people to assume that I only used those two basses and not this one. I would not have used the word "unused". I would have taken close up pictures of the stains and ding near the neck. I would have presented the bass as it was and let the buyer decide if they can live with the staining or damage. I would not have used words or phrases that can be read different ways. I would definitely not have listed it as new (other).

It was not buyers remorse. $429 + shipping was a good price for a NEW jag bass, which is what I thought I was buying. $429 is not a good price for a USED jag bass, since I know that I can get them for less than that (at least around here). If I knew that I was getting a USED bass, the staining or damage would not have bothered me. But it was listed as NEW (other). And the condition of the item is not subjective. Ebay has specific definitions for the conditions of items. Again this was in the sellers guide, so I assumed the seller followed eBay's definitions.

Ebay lists new (other) as "A new, unused item with absolutely no signs of wear. The item may be missing the original packaging, or in the original packaging but not sealed. The item may be a factory second or a new, unused item with defects. See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections." [emphasis mine]

So maybe my reading comprehension really isn't up to par, but I assume that when eBay says "unused", they don't mean that you used the item but then it was unused after you got another item to replace it with. Also, I assumed that "any imperfections" included the staining or ding near the neck and the seller would have needed to mention them. But I could be wrong. Maybe eBay's definitions are more subjective than I thought.

Just assume people are trying to screw you over if you've never dealt with them before, makes life a lot easier on you.
Also, I've read some of these replies about how you should have known it'd be damaged because it was left in a closet, etc. My advice to you about these people, don't ever buy anything from them. They'll sell you a car, washer, watch....whatever, then it'll crap out on you. In the end, they'll have an excuse how you should have known there was a problem because the moon was full last night. It's just a basic lack of integrity/honesty/decency that a certain segment of the human race possesses.
No, you shouldn't have known anything. I'd assume it was pristine too because that is what it was advertised as. The seller advertised falsely, wasting your time. He deserves negative feedback.

 

[redramen]

If you bought it as "used" or "near new" and it sat in his closet for a long time...... how could you honestly expect a pristine bass. What I see from the pictures is a used bass in good condition. If you wanted brand new, you should have gone to Sweetwater or Musicians Friend. I don't see the problem. Why does that bass rate a negative rating if he accepted the return. I have sold a lot of used guitars and basses on EBay and never had a negative rating or a return for something as minor as that.

Not sure if you read the whole thread or not, but the number one thing is that it wasn't listed as "used" or "near new". It was listed as "new". To me that is a big deal. The pictures didn't even show the damage or staining. That is also a big deal. If someone is the type of seller who doesn't show the obvious staining or damage, then I think that seller deserves a negative rating. As soon as I opened the box, I could see the staining and damage, so it wasn't even like someone just didnt notice it.

If it was listed as "used" or even if his text said "near new" instead of "pristine" and "unused", then he would not have gotten a negative rating.

I have bought a guitar that were stored properly that sat in a closet for years and I would have considered them "new (other)" which was how this bass was listed. That guitar was bought by somebody who bought it for a family member or something. So the guitar was never played. That is the kind of guitar that should be listed as "new (other)". This one shouldn't have been listed as new (other). So I do know for a fact that you can buy a "new (other)" guitar on ebay and it is actually as listed.

 

[redramen]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I dont want to post the listing, because I dont know if that is allowed. (is it?)

But if you search on ebay for jaguar basses that was sold in the past month, you will find the ad. Its the white PJ jaguar bass.

 

[redramen]

Just assume people are trying to screw you over if you've never dealt with them before, makes life a lot easier on you.
Also, I've read some of these replies about how you should have known it'd be damaged because it was left in a closet, etc. My advice to you about these people, don't ever buy anything from them. They'll sell you a car, washer, watch....whatever, then it'll crap out on you. In the end, they'll have an excuse how you should have known there was a problem because the moon was full last night. It's just a basic lack of integrity/honesty/decency that a certain segment of the human race possesses.
No, you shouldn't have known anything. I'd assume it was pristine too because that is what it was advertised as. The seller advertised falsely, wasting your time. He deserves negative feedback.

Thanks for the support. Yeah, the people who said that I should have known better even though it was listed as new, or the people who didn't have a problem that the seller listed it as new and that it was in pristine unused condition, but it had staining and damage. It makes me wonder how they sell stuff if they are okay with how this seller advertised and sold this bass.

 

[redramen]

And maybe I missed something but did the OP give the seller negative feedback? I've read most of this thread but don't recall seeing that.

I actually did give him a negative feedback today when he didnt send an immediate refund, but instead did the echeck thing. I know immediate refunds are possible. Also, I have messaged him numerous times, but never heard back from him after he reluctantly said that he will take my refund.

I originally wasn't going to give a negative feedback, but I just didnt like this seller. If he even apologized once, or messaged be back once after he realized it was his fault, or even admitted his mistake. If he expressed even a sliver of contrition, I wouldn't have given him a negative. If he did any of those things, I wouldnt have given him a negative.

If he messages me at all or gives me a valid explanation, I would change my negative rating.

 

[Member8675309]

Ebay can be interesting for sure ... I just had a couple correspondence with a seller of a bass that I had an interest in, listed as 'New (Other)' ... initially a lot of the specs were incorrect, so I asked for clarity, to make sure what I was seeing (pics were terrible, couldn't even tell the color in most of them) ... he insists the bass is 'New', but he is not a dealer so must list it as the 'New (Other)', so he also is calling it a 'Dealer Demo' ... but, the bass is 12 years old next month, and there is a component on the bass that is not stock to that model, and he seems to have no idea ...

I checked what else he has for sale, and there is another bass listed that is 15 years old (again by serial #), also listed as 'New (Other)' along with 'never been played' ...

The seller I am commenting about, seems legit in a lot of ways, great feedback, 100% all the way, lots of transactions (although many are small items, Fender waterslides interestingly), but something just doesn't sit right the way he is listing the couple I looked at ...

I guess to keep all this relative to this thread, sellers ideas of condition can be quite subjective, and in the case of this thread, there were several indications that this was not a 'new' bass ... sometimes the buyer has to read through the lines and have bought enough basses to understand what 'leaving something in a closet for a couple years', etc can do to a piece ... add that to the difference in pics posted in the original sale ad, compared to this threads OP (buyers) pics, and it is enough to baffle an onlooker for sure ...

The whole leaving in a closet aspect of this whole debacle is reminiscent of the black glove in the O.J. trial.

 

[redramen]

The whole leaving in a closet aspect of this whole debacle is reminiscent of the black glove in the O.J. trial.

Yeah. Are everybody else's closets filled with toxic waste? I have kept many guitars in my closet and they have never been damaged or stained like that. I store them in cases or containers with guitar humidifiers. So I don't understand why someone says, "it was stored in his *gasp* closet! Of course it's damaged!" Do people not know how to store stuff in a frickin closet?!?

 

[dxb]

I actually did give him a negative feedback today when he didnt send an immediate refund, but instead did the echeck thing. I know immediate refunds are possible. Also, I have messaged him numerous times, but never heard back from him after he reluctantly said that he will take my refund.

I originally wasn't going to give a negative feedback, but I just didnt like this seller. If he even apologized once, or messaged be back once after he realized it was his fault, or even admitted his mistake. If he expressed even a sliver of contrition, I wouldn't have given him a negative. If he did any of those things, I wouldnt have given him a negative.

If he messages me at all or gives me a valid explanation, I would change my negative rating.

Fair enough, though I try to avoid leaving neg. feedback whenever possible. Even when the seller's a real POS I often just don't leave feedback at all. I figure as long as I get my refund and if its a grey area at all I just let it go. If the seller is especially horrible though I might leave a neg. to warn others.

In this case I guess it could go either way. On the one hand, I'll give the seller the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't intentionally trying to screw anyone over. He might just be one of those people who isn't careful with his stuff and either didn't think a few dings were worth mentioning or simply didn't notice them. I know a few people like that. On the other hand, the guy was being shady about acknowledging the damage and then the delayed refund thing so yeah... But hey, at least you'll get your money eventually.