Eden 210xst/wt550 troubleshooting

[PixelWes]

Thanks so much guys, I learned a lot here.

I've actually never heard a properly functioning Eden in person but many people were recommending it for reggae on here. Family Man (Bob Marley/Wailers/etc) plays two Eden 410s and a WT series head and I just wanted a scaled down version for mostly bar gigs. My Peavey 115 actually produces great dubby, room-filling bass, it's just 110lbs and Reef (venue in Boise) has like 8 flights of stairs lol. Since I had a limited birthday budget and I couldn't get anything "nice" new, I thought a used Eden rig would be sexier than a new Bugera or whatever else I was looking at. I've seen the WT550 compared to a Tone Hammer and I know those things rip.

I tested the head on a Roland 115 today and it's plenty loud, I think the cab was the entire issue. The guy told me he can order some Eminence CA-1059s for much cheaper than the official Eden XST drivers, but as you say it's no longer an Eden at that point. Does anyone have experience with those, are they decent? I really have my heart set on the Eden tone, but that's just based on word-of-mouth expectation...for all I know, I'd like the Eminence sound better. If I bought a new Eden D210XST or new Eden drivers, you don't think it would deliver the classic Eden sound paired with my WT550 even though build quality may have declined? I don't think I want to risk buying used again.

I've read a lot about fEARful and it does sound like my dream cab. Unfortunately I'm not the kind of dude that has a shop and tools to build my own, which means I'd be buying someone's custom build and they always want a bajillion dollars for it. For now I just need something loud enough for rehearsals. It's possible I should just shove the Eminence drivers in the Eden box to get me through and start saving for a fEARful.

 

[agedhorse]

Somebody will need to run the numbers and see if those drivers will be suitable for your cabinet.

Note that those CA1059 drivers are ~250 watts (the 500 watt number is "program power" which is defined as twice the "RMS" power, so under the best of conditions you would have a ~500 watt "RMS" cabinet. If it was possible, a pair of 16 ohm (wired in parallel) or 4 ohm (wired in series) CA1059 drivers would be better (yielding an 8 ohm 210). I don't know off hand if the drivers are available in those impedances. If you end up with a 4 ohm cabinet, be careful and use good common sense. That's not going to be the makings of a dub reggae rig IMO.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks so much guys, I learned a lot here.

I've actually never heard a properly functioning Eden in person but many people were recommending it for reggae on here. Family Man (Bob Marley/Wailers/etc) plays two Eden 410s and a WT series head and I just wanted a scaled down version for mostly bar gigs. My Peavey 115 actually produces great dubby, room-filling bass, it's just 110lbs and Reef (venue in Boise) has like 8 flights of stairs lol. Since I had a limited birthday budget and I couldn't get anything "nice" new, I thought a used Eden rig would be sexier than a new Bugera or whatever else I was looking at. I've seen the WT550 compared to a Tone Hammer and I know those things rip.

I tested the head on a Roland 115 today and it's plenty loud, I think the cab was the entire issue. The guy told me he can order some Eminence CA-1059s for much cheaper than the official Eden XST drivers, but as you say it's no longer an Eden at that point. Does anyone have experience with those, are they decent? I really have my heart set on the Eden tone, but that's just based on word-of-mouth expectation...for all I know, I'd like the Eminence sound better. If I bought a new Eden D210XST or new Eden drivers, you don't think it would deliver the classic Eden sound paired with my WT550 even though build quality may have declined? I don't think I want to risk buying used again.

I've read a lot about fEARful and it does sound like my dream cab. Unfortunately I'm not the kind of dude that has a shop and tools to build my own, which means I'd be buying someone's custom build and they always want a bajillion dollars for it. For now I just need something loud enough for rehearsals. It's possible I should just shove the Eminence drivers in the Eden box to get me through and start saving for a fEARful.

Whatever driver you buy needs to have T/S parameters that are complementary to the design of the cab, or your just throwing away money. If the CA-1059 has been modeled in the cab, then your tech should be able to address the factors I mentioned earlier about RMS VS mechanical power handling. The driver has a 500W RMS rating, but that is no guarantee it will handle anything close to 500W when forced to reproduce dub bass in cab that was not designed for it.

I have attached the CA-1059 cab design document so you can get an idea of what the driver is capable of in a compatible cab. Maybe this document can give you some hints as to if the D210XST is close to compatible or not. Also there are online modelers where you can input the drivers TS parameters and get a fairly good idea.

IMHO your best bet is probably to spend the extra cash and buy the OEM drivers. But you will need to use some restraint to avoid causing the same exact damage the current drivers have already incurred. Will the cab take 500W, specs say it will, but how close to damage is the driver when you feed it 500W of heavy bass The better solution is to use more speakers so the efficiency goes up. Then you can get the necessary volume without blowing the cones apart.

 

[agedhorse]

The driver has a 250 watt RMS rating, not 500 watts.

 

[12bass]

FWIW, I still have my 4-ohm D-210XST and think it is a decent cabinet. When it was my main gigging cab, I dialed in a clear/deep tone, though my EQ was fairly flat, and it seemed to hold up fine with my 5-string. However, the XST sounds sort of like an AM radio when compared with my T3W fEARful 15/6/1, which sounds much deeper on the fundamentals and more open in the highs. I recommended looking into the 1515/66 or 15/6 & 15 sub because that is a setup that will safely reproduce deep fundamentals at higher volume levels; my thinking was along the lines of "if you're going to do it, do it right!".

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading that it is a good idea to keep the Eden tweeter on just a little to prevent damage to the L-pad; I'm also wondering if this might be part of the problem with the cabinet? The XST cabs were designed around XST woofers and I don't know what one would be like with another driver. But again, a single D-210XST can only do so much, especially if being fed a ton of deep bass. I don't recall bottoming out the woofers in mine, but I didn't play in very loud bands (and I'd also learned a lesson after creasing the woofers in my previous D-210XLT).

 

[Omega Monkey]

brand matched

Why do people think this matters at all? If a given amp doesn't work with a given cab (or vice versa) because they're different brands, that is not something you want to buy. The only reason for this idea is 100% marketing. If Company X can get you to buy 1 thing, then they have you locked in to buy 2 things.

I'm going to ask if the repair guy checked the preamp tube.

Why? Your problems almost certainly have nothing to do with the tube.

a local speaker repair shop fortified and stiffened them up

So they took a device that is purposely designed to be as light as possible and extremely kinetic, and made it less so? Yikes.

There was a tiny cluster of puncture holes in the ribbing around one speaker (which I've had sealed). I paid $400USD for the cab and got $300 refunded (the cost of a new driver from Eden if needed). Aside from the holes in the ribbing they appear fine, I've paid to have it checked out twice now.

By now with what you spent on chasing repairs of problems you didn't have properly diagnosed in the first place, you could have had a whole new cab. How much have you spent on repairs/

The pots were really dirty but they've been cleaned. I did find a specific setting on the High knob that made a constant high pitched squeal that was pretty scary, but the repair guy says the cleaning should fix that. I thought it could be a tube thing lol.

I thought dirty pots should be expected on something that old.

It's 12. It doesn't even shave yet. In amplifier years it's barely been born.

Maybe I got fleeced, idk.

You definitely got fleeced.

If I recall correctly that tweeter is wired opposite of the woofers specifically to be out of phase with them because it is so much faster than the woofers that in practice that makes its sound in phase?

You do not recall correctly. The reason to wire a tweeter out of phase like that would be if the crossover electrically switches the phase in regard to the low output (ie to the woofers).

Family Man (Bob Marley/Wailers/etc) plays two Eden 410s

Yeah, 4 times the amount of speaker you have.

A 210 is really not a loud cab at all. Most people seem to be horrible at gauging how much volume/power they need for a given application and understanding how changing the application changes the amount of power and volume needed. And it's not like the Price is Right. You ALWAYS want to "go over". With guitar, in a lot of settings, you can get away with a lower powered amp because you get more breakup and compression and it can sound better than using the "right" amount of power.

But bass is very different. As you run out of juice with bass, the sound thins out and disappears, or, if you have enough power but not enough cab, you destroy your speakers. So if you think you need 100 watts, bring 300 watts. Imagine if your car redlines at 7000 RPM and you ran it at 6900 all the time. Would that be good for it? Of course not, you want to be cruising along at like 2500, so you can pass, etc... and so the engine doesn't blow up from being run flat out constantly.

Anyway, you've already dumped a bunch of money into this project. My advice is sell the cab as a non working project for the same $100 you bought it for (someone else shouldn't have to pay for your foolish chasing of "repair" after repair), and get something actually suited to what you want. If you're on a budget, you basically cannot beat an SWR Goliath 4x10. Yes, they weight 90 pounds (ish), but they are pretty loud and if you don't abuse them, they should last forever. They are also pretty readily available in north america for fairly cheap. There are other similar options.

I don't think you are going to get anything usable out of the Eden cab without spending a ludicrous amount of money compared to the value you'll be getting vs other available options.

Sorry you had such bad luck with everything, that really sucks. I bought a keyboard workstation for $1000 and used it lightly for about 18 months before it died completely. So it's been sitting about a year until I get the budget to take it to get repaired. Could be something super simple and cost a bench fee, or could be a few hundred bucks (anything more than that and I'll just sell it). But at least your cautionary tale is here now for others to see and learn from (they won't learn from it and next week someone else will post an identical thread, but that's on them). If people thought through things more carefully and more scientifically and did their research up front instead of after, a lot of these situations wouldn't happen or at least not be made worse.

 

[Wasnex]

You do not recall correctly. The reason to wire a tweeter out of phase like that would be if the crossover electrically switches the phase in regard to the low output (ie to the woofers).

AFAIK, the cab has an 18dB HPF on the tweeter, and the woofers are run full range, so you are not really going to get phase coherence regardless of the tweeter's polarity. However, I believe the factory original connection is the tweeter wired out of phase with the woofers.

 

[agedhorse]

The tweeter polarity is not the problem. Yes, I’m sure.

 

[grouse789]

Wow, page three here is full of so much wisdom kid. Take some notes and dump that cab.
Go find a used Avatar bass cab, 2x12. The can be had cheap used. SwR also. Can't go wrong

 

[agedhorse]

I’m going to repeat advice that I have said before... whenever buying a used speaker, always verify that the components are original manufacturer correct parts, and that they have not been damaged.

With today’s larger amps and unrealistic expectations, damage is not uncommon.

 

[Wasnex]

The tweeter polarity is not the problem. Yes, I’m sure.

I think your correct. AFAIK the tweeter is currently non-op

 

[Wasnex]

With today’s larger amps and unrealistic expectations, damage is not uncommon.

Damage is apparently not uncommon with yesterday's larger amps as well .

 

[12bass]

The suggestions to replace the D-210XST with SWR or Avatar are not making a whole lot of sense to me. The woofers may be damaged and the tweeter circuit may need some work, but these issues are fairly easily fixed. As far as "regular" commercial bass cabs go (i.e. not super-cabs like fEARful, AudioKinesis, Barefaced), the D-210XST is one of the better ones in my experience, and sounds similar to the EA NL-210. Getting it back in playing condition will likely be less expensive than buying another cabinet. I do agree, however, that any 2x10" will be limited in terms of volume if required to produce a lot of deep fundamentals below 40Hz... which is why I suggested the 1515/66 or 15/6 & 15 sub, which do much better down low.

Also, can anyone chime in on the tweeter circuit, specifically the suggestion to keep the tweeter on slightly to avoid damaging the L-pad?

 

[Wasnex]

Also, can anyone chime in on the tweeter circuit, specifically the suggestion to keep the tweeter on slightly to avoid damaging the L-pad?

Off the top of my head, I would say this is probably correct. When the L-pad is wide open the tweeter should dissipate all of the power. When the L-pad is completely closed, the L-pad should dissipate all of the power.

The only part that gives me doubt is, either way, all of the power passes through the L-pad.

I probably depends somewhat on how the L-pad is made. I don't know if the graphic is accurate as I believe the wiper in some L-pads essentially parks on a contact at both position 3 and 1, so the resistance in those positions is either all the way in or all the way out. If I am correct, then the advice is accurate.

 

[PixelWes]

I don't know how many more ways I can say this: I have owned another 210 (Fender Rumble combo) and my expectations are based on firsthand experience. This Eden setup isn't as loud as I hoped because the speakers are shot, not because I'm expecting 410 output from a 210. I wouldn't show up to Family Man's gig with a single 210.

The entire point of purchasing this amp was to replace my Peavey 115 combo because it's TOO HEAVY. Telling me to buy one of the heaviest 410s ever produced isn't helpful at all.

 

[PixelWes]

The repair guy pulled up his supplier website and we looked at the drivers together, at first he had selected a 500w but then he second guessed himself and thought 250+250=500. I think I'll stick with the OEM drivers, if anything.

The seller tried to tell me the holes in the surround occurred during shipping, it was an arduous process with Reverb to force a partial refund. I don't think they would have been honest with me about other damage or replaced parts if I asked up front. For me the big takeaway is not to buy used online. I thought about sending the cab back immediately but I would have still had to eat all the shipping. I did have it looked at by a tech before I decided to keep it. How am I supposed to know more than guys who do this for a living? I know you all think you would have played it differently, easy to say.

I've only paid $45 for repairs so far. If I pay for new drivers and L-pad I'm at $850-900 total including shipping which is still $500 cheaper than a new cab of the same model. I like that idea better than buying yet another used cab when local techs have been so unhelpful.

 

[12bass]

New XST drivers will essentially turn it into a new D-210XST, as long as the internal wiring it okay. Sounds like a good plan. When working properly, it is a good sounding cabinet, though not the lightest, nor the most efficient.

 

[Wasnex]

The repair guy pulled up his supplier website and we looked at the drivers together, at first he had selected a 500w but then he second guessed himself and thought 250+250=500. I think I'll stick with the OEM drivers, if anything.

The seller tried to tell me the holes in the surround occurred during shipping, it was an arduous process with Reverb to force a partial refund. I don't think they would have been honest with me about other damage or replaced parts if I asked up front. For me the big takeaway is not to buy used online. I thought about sending the cab back immediately but I would have still had to eat all the shipping. I did have it looked at by a tech before I decided to keep it. How am I supposed to know more than guys who do this for a living? I know you all think you would have played it differently, easy to say.

I've only paid $45 for repairs so far. If I pay for new drivers and L-pad I'm at $850-900 total including shipping which is still $500 cheaper than a new cab of the same model. I like that idea better than buying yet another used cab when local techs have been so unhelpful.

I don't get the impression the tech you are working with knows how to select a proper replacement driver. You will definitely be better off with OEM than dropping a random drive into the cab.

Check the tweeter. I believe there is also a light bulb that is intended to act as a fuse/compressor for the tweeter. If you going to order a new L-pad, you might as well order all the parts you need at the same time to save on shipping.

If you do the work yourself...make sure and document the wiring before you take it apart.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't get the impression the tech you are working with knows how to select a proper replacement driver. You will definitely be better off with OEM than dropping a random drive into the cab.

Check the tweeter. I believe there is also a light bulb that is intended to act as a fuse/compressor for the tweeter. If you going to order a new L-pad, you might as well order all the parts you need at the same time to save on shipping.

If you do the work yourself...make sure and document the wiring before you take it apart.

Agreed.

 

[agedhorse]

The repair guy pulled up his supplier website and we looked at the drivers together, at first he had selected a 500w but then he second guessed himself and thought 250+250=500. I think I'll stick with the OEM drivers, if anything.

The seller tried to tell me the holes in the surround occurred during shipping, it was an arduous process with Reverb to force a partial refund. I don't think they would have been honest with me about other damage or replaced parts if I asked up front. For me the big takeaway is not to buy used online. I thought about sending the cab back immediately but I would have still had to eat all the shipping. I did have it looked at by a tech before I decided to keep it. How am I supposed to know more than guys who do this for a living? I know you all think you would have played it differently, easy to say.

I've only paid $45 for repairs so far. If I pay for new drivers and L-pad I'm at $850-900 total including shipping which is still $500 cheaper than a new cab of the same model. I like that idea better than buying yet another used cab when local techs have been so unhelpful.

I have mentioned many times that when you need service, seek out the most qualified tech that you can. Unfortunately, many techs these days are only techs in name, they may talk the talk but many can't walk the walk. This is challenging for manufacturers who are setting up service centers too, over the years there have been service centers that have become "de-authorized" after frustrating conversations where it's clear that the tech/shop is under-qualified.

I do not have a good answer for this, at least it only cost you $45. It could have been much worse.