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Educate me on bi-amping

I have developed some serious GAS for amps recently, which is something I previously gave very little thought. Mostly used ampeg/acoustic/peavey solid-state combos throughout the years, but after recently buying a few tube amps I have developed a whole new facet of my gear addiction.

I have always just played various genres of rock, plug in a muff fuzz and go. Now I have been playing in a stoner/doom group and I read about how bi-amping can help cut through the mix when stacked up against distorted guitar with heavy mids/lows.

Now while I understand the concept, I don’t understand the execution. Is it possible to bi-amp with 1 head through 2 cabs? I assume most people bi-amp with a pedal that has dual outputs, but how does that work if youre trying to keep one signal completely clean? When bi-amping with a rickenbacker (queued up to be my next purchase they are essential doom equipment, no?) using a split cable how do you determine the “high” and “low” signals? Or are they identical and the dynamics boil down to EQing of the amp? I am just trying to not blow a guitar cabinet by feeding it a bass signal the speakers arent designed to support.

Additionally I am trying to figure out the amp configuration. The most common setup I believe is to run the clean bass signal through a SS bass amp, and the high signal through a tube guitar amp. I assume many people run 2+ of the same rig, unless the walls of marshall/orange amps you see at metal shows are just for aesthetics. I believe conventional wisdom says that 15” speakers are better for bass response, and 10” are better for crisp highs but from browsing this forum its clear that no two speakers are created equally regardless of size. So maybe suggestions on what speakers have which characteristics or which prefabbed cabinets are designed for what applications? Ideally I think I would run a musicman sixtyfive 212/210 for the highs and a 100 watt all-tube amp (I have a weber kit but am also on the hunt for a Bassman 100/Sunn 100s/Ampeg V4B) through a 115 cab for the lows.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Please steer me in the right direction. Especially when it comes to old sunns and guitar amps. I. Know. Nothing. Im sure that is evident already.

Cheers :)
 
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Sorry, I don't have any experience with any Sunn Guitar Amps. I can only speak of my experience with my Amp.

I run my bi-amp with an Ampeg SVT 4 Pro, I run only Full Range Lows, I run the crossover at 200hz and rolled off the balance knob into some bass. I run the gain at 3 o'clock for the growl. One amp, two 8 ohms cabs. I just run the Amps EQ to dial in the sound, I don't think I am splitting the frequencies hi/lows into each cab as they're full range.

What amps/cabs are you using to accomplish this?
 
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Sorry, I don't have any experience with any Sunn Guitar Amps. I can only speak of my experience with my Amp.

I run my bi-amp with an Ampeg SVT 4 Pro, I run only Full Range Lows, I run the crossover at 200hz and rolled off the balance knob into some bass. I run the gain at 3 o'clock for the growl. One amp, two 8 ohms cabs. I just run the Amps EQ to dial in the sound, I don't think I am splitting the frequencies hi/lows into each cab as they're full range.

What amps/cabs are you using to accomplish this?

I currently have a 100w orange clone, 50w marshall clone, and a 5w champ clone. Planning on buying a silverface bassman 100 as soon as another clean one passes under my nose again. I am 100% down to buy another SS or hybrid-tube bass head. I was really put off by the lack of tone from my old acoustic/ampegs, but I have read really rave things about genz benz, eden and some others. As far as cabs go, my current setup is all suitable for bedroom playing only. I have been looking at ampeg’s portaflex series of cabinets which come in both 115 and 410 configurations. Dont know much about their speakers or overall quality but I figured its hard to go wrong with an ampeg cabinet.

thanks if you have any other suggestions. The SVT pro/CL is a sweet amp but just a little too expensive.
 
Before you go down this road, you might try some of the many newer higher performance amps and cabinets on the market. My experience is that many of these outperform cobbled together "bi-amp" solutions, some by a country mile. There's a lot to choose from.
 
Before you go down this road, you might try some of the many newer higher performance amps and cabinets on the market. My experience is that many of these outperform cobbled together "bi-amp" solutions, some by a country mile. There's a lot to choose from.
That is fair. We have come a long way since the late 90s.

What would you consider modern high performance? Markbass maybe? I am totally clueless when it comes to amplification. Just looking for something loud with a little bit of clarity when using an obscene amount of dirt/fuzz.
 
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You need an active crossover and two amps to bi-amp. A full range signal goes into the crossover, which divides it into two bands High, and low. The two outputs of the crossovers go into two amps (both sides of a stereo amp for example.) The low frequency cab can best be optimized to lower frequencies, and the high cab is usually smaller speakers optimized for the corresponding frequencies. For example Phil Lesh's rig (three way) the low frequency output goes to 2x18" cabs, the mid output goes to 10's, and the high output runs tweeters (3 amps, 3 way crossovers)
Bi, and tri amping was the exclusive domain of high end P.A. systems back in the seventies. In the 80's bass players started adopting it for the sake of extreme fidelity, and high efficiency. By 2000 bi amp bass rigs were pretty much gone, although they have their fans. You have to decide if the complexity of such a rig gives you worthwhile benefits.
 
Any information would be greatly appreciated. Please steer me in the right direction. Especially when it comes to old sunns and guitar amps. I. Know. Nothing. Im sure that is evident already.

You're most likely actually looking for a clean/dirty two amp rig, not a biamped one in the classical pro sound definition sense. This leaves you with less rules-of-thumb and more responsibility on your part to figure out what's going to work for you. With a Ric there's typically already a low cut cap on the bridge pickup, in which case you can just run that output through your noise toys to the guitar amp side. For the clean-ish side, how big is your budget? And as Andy says, a more modern approach might just scratch the whole itch as well or better. Clean/dirty blending has come a long way since the 70s, for starters

FWIW, I'm going through a similar exercise myself right now. The twist is that it's for slide bass though (think Clatter meets Ornette Coleman, but weirder) , and I'm building my own tube amp specifically for that misguided purpose. I'll be running a pair of 115 cabs for the clean side, probably with a top cab of one sort or another as well. Dunno what form the tube side cab is going to take just yet, but certainly nothing exceeds like excess!
Yel_wink.gif
 
I have developed some serious GAS for amps recently, which is something I previously gave very little thought. Mostly used ampeg/acoustic/peavey solid-state combos throughout the years, but after recently buying a few tube amps I have developed a whole new facet of my gear addiction.

I have always just played various genres of rock, plug in a muff fuzz and go. Now I have been playing in a stoner/doom group and I read about how bi-amping can help cut through the mix when stacked up against distorted guitar with heavy mids/lows.

Now while I understand the concept, I don’t understand the execution. Is it possible to bi-amp with 1 head through 2 cabs? I assume most people bi-amp with a pedal that has dual outputs, but how does that work if youre trying to keep one signal completely clean? When bi-amping with a rickenbacker (queued up to be my next purchase they are essential doom equipment, no?) using a split cable how do you determine the “high” and “low” signals? Or are they identical and the dynamics boil down to EQing of the amp? I am just trying to not blow a guitar cabinet by feeding it a bass signal the speakers arent designed to support.

Additionally I am trying to figure out the amp configuration. The most common setup I believe is to run the clean bass signal through a SS bass amp, and the high signal through a tube guitar amp. I assume many people run 2+ of the same rig, unless the walls of marshall/orange amps you see at metal shows are just for aesthetics. I believe conventional wisdom says that 15” speakers are better for bass response, and 10” are better for crisp highs but from browsing this forum its clear that no two speakers are created equally regardless of size. So maybe suggestions on what speakers have which characteristics or which prefabbed cabinets are designed for what applications? Ideally I think I would run a musicman sixtyfive 212/210 for the highs and a 100 watt all-tube amp (I have a weber kit but am also on the hunt for a Bassman 100/Sunn 100s/Ampeg V4B) through a 115 cab for the lows.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Please steer me in the right direction. Especially when it comes to old sunns and guitar amps. I. Know. Nothing. Im sure that is evident already.

Cheers :)

As others have pointed out, the majority of people do not consider what you are describing as bi-amping. I suggest the term multi-amping. To most people bi-amping involves the use of a crossover. Multi-amping is simply the use of multiple amps.

It sounds like you have enough gear to put together a decent multi-amp rig. You can get nice results especially if your rig carries the room instead of the PA. The clean side makes sure the low end stays tight and defined and the distortion side gives you the desired texture and tone. I suggest you experiment. It will be fun and you should learn a lot.

There is pretty much an infinite number of ways to successfully implement such a rig. Usually you use your most powerful amp for the clean side. Often a bass amp will be used for clean and a guitar amp used for OD. The problem is most guitar speakers cannot handle high-powered bass.

One solution is to rolls of the lows with a tone controls, but this can degrade the tone. A better solution would be to use a HPF. An HPF would allow you to continue using the Bass tone control, but the amp will not receive a lot of power below the knee of the HPF.

Ultimately you need to use speakers that are capable of producing the sound you want at the desired SPL. When I multi-amped, (actually it was Ric-O-Sound), I ran a blackface Fender Twin loaded with JBL E120s. The Twin makes about 85W clean and the JBLs could take almost all of the power with full range bass as long as I kept the amp's Bass control below 4. Keep in mind each E120 is rated for 150RMS 300W Program, so they are extremely heavy duty guitar speakers.
 
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Usually you use your most powerful amp for the clean side. Often a bass amp will be used for clean and a guitar amp used for OD. The problem is most guitar speakers cannot handle high-powered bass.

One solution is to rolls of the lows with a tone controls, but this can degrade the tone. A better solution would be to use a HPF. An HPF would allow you to continue using the Bass tone control, but the amp will not receive a lot of power below the knee of the HPF.

What he said!! These are very important issues that must be addressed if you're going the multi-amp route. I recommend using a HPF no matter what you play through.
 
You need an active crossover and two amps to bi-amp. A full range signal goes into the crossover, which divides it into two bands High, and low. The two outputs of the crossovers go into two amps (both sides of a stereo amp for example.) The low frequency cab can best be optimized to lower frequencies, and the high cab is usually smaller speakers optimized for the corresponding frequencies. For example Phil Lesh's rig (three way) the low frequency output goes to 2x18" cabs, the mid output goes to 10's, and the high output runs tweeters (3 amps, 3 way crossovers)
Bi, and tri amping was the exclusive domain of high end P.A. systems back in the seventies. In the 80's bass players started adopting it for the sake of extreme fidelity, and high efficiency. By 2000 bi amp bass rigs were pretty much gone, although they have their fans. You have to decide if the complexity of such a rig gives you worthwhile benefits.
And in the blue corner we have the sound people!

OP might listen to reason but is it going to make any difference in a doom band?

Is it possible to bi-amp with 1 head through 2 cabs?
no. Although you are using the guitar player corruption of the term bi amp this is not even that. Some GK and Trace amps had it built in back in the day. A big amp for lows and a little amp for highs going to separate cab systems.

Bassman 100/Sunn 100s/Ampeg V4B) through a 115 cab for the lows.
getting warmer but not nearly enough oomph to go with a shouting high end.

You didn't say if you were using a full PA. The bigshot boys and girls always assume you are and the homeboys assume you aren't.

It's a whole lot of work to translate a bi amp rig into the PA.

Any of your tube amps could run a high side of guitar tones. If you do that are the guitarists going to turn up with twice as much gear too?

If you have an amp with a tuner output that is always on you can use it to send an extra copy of the bass signal to the other amp. Badabingbadaboom you are biamping. Eq each appropriately and hope for the best.
 
That is fair. We have come a long way since the late 90s.

What would you consider modern high performance? Markbass maybe? I am totally clueless when it comes to amplification. Just looking for something loud with a little bit of clarity when using an obscene amount of dirt/fuzz.

The biggest detractors of multi-amping is you will be carrying a lot of extra gear that is not really necessary. Also trying to capture what you are trying to achieve with a multi-amp rig and route it through the PA can be challenging. IMHO it's a very old school approach that probably works best in an old school environment where everyone ranks the :poop: out of their amp and the PA handles vocals only.
 
Before you go down this road, you might try some of the many newer higher performance amps and cabinets on the market. My experience is that many of these outperform cobbled together "bi-amp" solutions, some by a country mile. There's a lot to choose from.
This times 100. I had a cobbled together bi-amped rig in the 80s that definitely cut through the mix, but was huge and heavy (2x15 + 2x12). Modern amps and cabs do it better in a much smaller and lighter form factor.
 
Let me tell you about someone who thought he absolutely had to bi-amp (me).
I had good crossovers, I had good speakers, and I had good amps. I could get a great tone in my shop, and on stage before the band cranked up. After the band started, I started adjusting. The balance between the lows and highs wasn’t right so I started adjusting. The midrange wasn’t quite right, more adjusting. The highs had some odd high mids, more adjusting.

I tried bi-amping with a lot of different configurations and the result was the same in about 90% of the tries; I ended up going full range by the end of the night. Was it just me trying to get everything perfect (probably), or is it that bi-amping provides too much flexibility and the average bassist can’t get things dialed in (very possible).

My advice is the same as most; get a good speaker cabinet (I recommend two good ones) and a good amp, and run in full range. If you have an amp that has a crossover or if you have a good stand-alone crossover, you might consider a second amp and cabinet just for lows, but only for really big rooms or outdoors on a flat bed trailer. That is only if you don’t have a good PA to play through and your amp is carrying a large part of the load for your bass. The extra umph on the low end outdoors can help. Run your main amp and cabinets full range.

The simplest setup usually sounds the best if you have decent gear. Full range is not “less than” bi-amping, and very well might be “more than” bi-amping if you have a less-than-really-good crossover.
 
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You need an active crossover and two amps to bi-amp. A full range signal goes into the crossover, which divides it into two bands High, and low. The two outputs of the crossovers go into two amps (both sides of a stereo amp for example.) The low frequency cab can best be optimized to lower frequencies, and the high cab is usually smaller speakers optimized for the corresponding frequencies. For example Phil Lesh's rig (three way) the low frequency output goes to 2x18" cabs, the mid output goes to 10's, and the high output runs tweeters (3 amps, 3 way crossovers)
Bi, and tri amping was the exclusive domain of high end P.A. systems back in the seventies. In the 80's bass players started adopting it for the sake of extreme fidelity, and high efficiency. By 2000 bi amp bass rigs were pretty much gone, although they have their fans. You have to decide if the complexity of such a rig gives you worthwhile benefits.

Thank you P! TIL whats an active crossover, never before had I heard of it. I would think for the most part I will be playing sans-PA, or at least only the vocals running through a PA system.

You can also use the Tech21 dUg Pinnick DP-3X pedal and get the same affect through a single amp and cab.

Thanks for the suggestion I will surely check out a review on YT.

You're most likely actually looking for a clean/dirty two amp rig, not a biamped one in the classical pro sound definition sense. This leaves you with less rules-of-thumb and more responsibility on your part to figure out what's going to work for you. With a Ric there's typically already a low cut cap on the bridge pickup, in which case you can just run that output through your noise toys to the guitar amp side. For the clean-ish side, how big is your budget? And as Andy says, a more modern approach might just scratch the whole itch as well or better. Clean/dirty blending has come a long way since the 70s, for starters

FWIW, I'm going through a similar exercise myself right now. The twist is that it's for slide bass though (think Clatter meets Ornette Coleman, but weirder) , and I'm building my own tube amp specifically for that misguided purpose. I'll be running a pair of 115 cabs for the clean side, probably with a top cab of one sort or another as well. Dunno what form the tube side cab is going to take just yet, but certainly nothing exceeds like excess! View attachment 3845771

Wow, thats pretty out there. Good luck with the amp build, I just finished a "simple" kit and it absolutely kicked my butt. For the clean side I'd like to spend less than $600 on the head, cabs are easy enough to find (and crappy speakers easy enough to replace). My idea was probably a more modern SS or hybrid tube bass head for the clean/low signal. I just have no idea where to start. My old peavey/ampeg/acoustic combos left such a poor taste in my mouth yet those brands seem to be the jumping off point. Of course Ive read great things about markbass, genz benz, GK and hartke but I have little to zero experience. Think I've only played a markbass combo and I remember it being wildly expensive.


Honestly back in the dark ages of bass amplification the 15" is better for bass and the 10" better for highs was pretty much true but today with Well designed cabs the 10's can equal if not outperform the 15's.

So does this go both ways? Do modern 15 (or 18) inch speakers offer crisp highs similar to 10s? Or not?

As others have pointed out, the majority of people do not consider what you are describing as bi-amping. I suggest the term multi-amping. To most people bi-amping involves the use of a crossover. Multi-amping is simply the use of multiple amps.

It sounds like you have enough gear to put together a decent multi-amp rig. You can get nice results especially if your rig carries the room instead of the PA. The clean side makes sure the low end stays tight and defined and the distortion side gives you the desired texture and tone. I suggest you experiment. It will be fun and you should learn a lot.

There is pretty much an infinite number of ways to successfully implement such a rig. Usually you use your most powerful amp for the clean side. Often a bass amp will be used for clean and a guitar amp used for OD. The problem is most guitar speakers cannot handle high-powered bass.

One solution is to rolls of the lows with a tone controls, but this can degrade the tone. A better solution would be to use a HPF. An HPF would allow you to continue using the Bass tone control, but the amp will not receive a lot of power below the knee of the HPF.

Ultimately you need to use speakers that are capable of producing the sound you want at the desired SPL. When I multi-amped, (actually it was Ric-O-Sound), I ran a blackface Fender Twin loaded with JBL E120s. The Twin makes about 85W clean and the JBLs could take almost all of the power with full range bass as long as I kept the amp's Bass control below 4. Keep in mind each E120 is rated for 150RMS 300W Program, so they are extremely heavy duty guitar speakers.

Thank you for the HPF suggestion. Yet another tool I had never heard of before today.

I *think* I am trying to bi-amp, rather than just use multiple amps. If I am understanding correctly bi-amping is splitting the original signal into low and high frequency signals to be sent to separate amps while "multi-amping" is just sending the same signal to two different amps and shaping the EQ through the amp's preamp???

In theory ric-o-sound is bi-amping, no? Each pickup has its own signal and the bridge pickup is capped to choke the bass freq? Maybe I am misunderstanding all of this. Partly because prior to this afternoon I thought rickenbacker's stereo output was similar to the stereo output on Billy Sheehan's. Hell maybe it is, I am trying to wrap my head around all this.

Good to know if I go with the musicman sixtyfive rather than an all tube head I should look into replacing the speakers. I've played through guitar combo amps in a pinch, but always with the bass down below 4 and never "at volume".


And in the blue corner we have the sound people!

OP might listen to reason but is it going to make any difference in a doom band?

no. Although you are using the guitar player corruption of the term bi amp this is not even that. Some GK and Trace amps had it built in back in the day. A big amp for lows and a little amp for highs going to separate cab systems.

getting warmer but not nearly enough oomph to go with a shouting high end.

You didn't say if you were using a full PA. The bigshot boys and girls always assume you are and the homeboys assume you aren't.

It's a whole lot of work to translate a bi amp rig into the PA.

Any of your tube amps could run a high side of guitar tones. If you do that are the guitarists going to turn up with twice as much gear too?

If you have an amp with a tuner output that is always on you can use it to send an extra copy of the bass signal to the other amp. Badabingbadaboom you are biamping. Eq each appropriately and hope for the best.

I was actually thinking the tube amps would run my dirt and a SS/hybrid dedicated bass amp would carry the clean/low channel, perhaps unnecessary but guitar forums are supposed to egg you into a purchase not talk you out of it :laugh: I could run the 50w marshall dirty and the 100w orange clean, if I had enough cabs lol unfortunately I just have an SWR 210 and an open back guitar cab.

So you do have a point. I think some of my interest is definitely chalked up to a desire for "scene points". AFAIK PAing your rig is "uncool" in the metal world. Everybody wants to be like Lemmy or Matt Pike and play in front of a half dozen full stacks.

My point of attraction is also more rooted in clarity, or fidelity as someone put earlier. I am probably comfortable enough pushing a 100 watt tube amp through a nice cab. My 50w marshall clone competes well enough with a drummer in our practice space volume wise (not through my swr, some no-name 410) I just feel like when I hear recordings of us (phone mic not DI) I just get jumbled and lost in the mix because the guitar exists in the same (fuzzy) sonic space.

The biggest detractors of multi-amping is you will be carrying a lot of extra gear that is not really necessary. Also trying to capture what you are trying to achieve with a multi-amp rig and route it through the PA can be challenging. IMHO it's a very old school approach that probably works best in an old school environment where everyone ranks the :poop: out of their amp and the PA handles vocals only.

Probably the exact environments I will be playing in. Not super concerned with moving around gear. Keeping up with it all is a pain in the ass I am sure but I am young and green around the ears. Barely 24, I have another 24 years ahead of me before I get jaded and switch to a micro-rig and a multi-fx :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 
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What you're talking about is not bi-amping, splitting a single source signal (PA, bass guitar, etc.) at a certain crossover frequency into dedicated amps and speakers for lows and highs. This was done in bass guitars in the 70's and 80's, and for most, its time has come and gone with the advent of current technology. Modern amps and cabinets have made it unnecessary these days. I did it back in the day, but would not now.

There are lots of cabinets with several different size speakers in them (PA bins, home hi-fi, lots of bass guitar cabinets) driven off single amps, but these used passive crossovers inside the cabinet (an electronic circuit) that divides and sends the right frequencies to the right speaker inside the cabinet.

Now, some guys may still bi-amp for effects following the technique that you leave your big fundamentals, the low end of the split, unaffected and clean, then use the upper part of the signal for the applied effects (chorus, distortion, etc.). We see this practice followed electronically in some bass pedals, and you can still use your regular amp and cabinets with those.

You're talking more about a split signal (which can be done with any bass, not just Rickenbackers, with a 'Y' cable) where you're split-sending signal to a bass amp for your bass tone, and generally a smaller guitar amp for distortion, from the bass guitar. This would be easier than trying to do this with splitting cabinets off one head, by far, which most likely wouldn't work, two amps work best for this. Sending big bass through guitar cabinets is generally a recipe for disaster at any kind of loud levels: They're generally not built for that.

Now you could do this with a Rickenbacker with the separate outs, but don't get confused by those: Those outputs aren't 'stereo', nor are they after a crossover inside the bass. It's actually an output for each pickup. So you could use the neck pickup to drive a bass amp (the deeper sounding of the two) and the bridge pickup for the guitar amp and effects (the thinner sounding of the two). One bass, two cables, two amps, but you'd have to match the amps so one would not drown out the other.

I'd also advise steering clear of old Sunns or any of the other ancient sleds: Unless they're VERY properly maintained, they were built for a different time . . . . . a long time ago. What slightly different preferred tone you might think you hear would be far outweighed by maintenance headaches for those of us that aren't touring with guitar roadies and electronic techs. I'm old enough to have used a lot of the ancient 'lead sleds' back in my time, and would NOT trade them for modern gear.

Here's one of the 'Rig Rundown' vids from PREMIER GUITAR about Stanley Clarke's touring rig from 2011. SC was running a small Fender guitar amp for a distortion edge on some tunes, and here his tech explains how they did it, right around the 3:00 mark:

Rig Rundown - Stanley Clarke

The two Alembics run off 18v phantom power (those big plug-in cables on the face of the two Alembics just below the knobs), and the 'preamps' his tech is talking about are actually Alembic DS5R power supplies for each bass in the top rack. These have HIGH, LOW, and FULL RANGE outputs, and for one of the amps, they tapped the HIGH output (while still feeding the Ampeg heads simultaneously from the FULL RANGE output) to go to that Fender amp for one of the Alembics. Mic'd up thru the house and monitors, it's 'big enough'. It's similar to the Rickenbacker setup, the HIGH is the bridge pickup, the LOW is the neck pickup, and FULL RANGE is both pickups.

Now most of us don't have the advantage of touring with a trunk full of Alembic gear, but this illustration of the idea is what you want to take away for the best way to do this: Ideally, to feed a signal short of the deep end of the signal to a suitable guitar amp.

There's several ways to do it, and you'll have to decide what's best for you.

AND . . . . . however you do this, MAKE SURE you've got it squared away and it WORKS, every time. The surest way to lose gigs is to show up with some half-ass, only-works-if-I-hold-my-mouth-just-right rig that you're fighting all night long to keep it running. Mess up like that on a regular basis, and you'll be back gigging in the bedroom so fast you won't believe it. Being a pro and green are NOT mutually exclusive, and very few will give you time to grow up on the bandstand. With the real musicians, being prepared is an expected given.
 
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