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Double Bass Effect of cold on amplifiers

#41
I've left amps and cabs in the car during really cold weather and only once have I had a problem. Last winter when the temperature was somewhere near O Fahrenheit, I left my LittleMark III amp and fEARful 12/6 in the car all day while I was at work. Of course, my bass was safe inside with me. At the venue, by the time I loaded in, time was getting tight, so I plugged my LMIII in after about ten minutes. After a minute or two, the fan started making a horrible squealing sound. I started to panic, as the gig was a stuffy, quiet corporate gig and we needed to start. I turned the amp off and let it warm up for about ten minutes and it was fine. I've used that amp hard for years and never had any problems with it, so I'm sure it was the cold.
 
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#42
I only leave my gear in the car in warmer months. While I haven't had an experience with an amplifier malfunctioning, I did once have issues in college when I used to leave my digital electronics test gear in my car. Test probes and such wouldn't work correctly until they warmed up.

While this is probably an apples and oranges comparison, most components are rated to operate optimally in a particular temperature range. It stands to reason that you'd at least want to allow some time for your amp to adjust to room temperature before throwing the switch.
 
#43
I'm thinking of one of my first ski trips. You walk into the chalet (OK, this was western NY state, not the Alps!) and suddenly your goggles/glasses fog up. My dad , who was a camera geek, told me to wrap them in something airtight, and only bring them out after ten minutes or so when they'd had a chance to warm up. That way, the increased moisture content of the warmer air would not condense on them. I would speculate that the risk to electronics and speaker surfaces is not cold temperature itself, but simple condensation. The solution? When in very cold weather, keep the covers on for awhile, or transport small amps in plastic bags, and wait awhile before removing them. I think turning on an amp as soon as you unpack it is a very bad idea. Judging from my ski experiences, condensation occurs almost instantly. Way faster than the time it takes for your amp to warm up, at least.
 
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#44
I'm not sure about bass gear but most electronics usually goes through environmental stress tests. Temperature fluctuations, extreme temps, etc.

If an amp comes out distorted, it's probably not temp/condensation related. Was probably just a bad build that got through and they've since fixed it and now selling it as B-stock.

I would think that most places where it's cold with snow will also be very dry. Any condensation will go away very quickly. Your goggles fog up because there's humid air between you and the lens. The internals are not going to have moisture inside to have such a thing happen. If it does get condensation, it would be on the outside, not the inside.

Maybe if you bought the amp into a steam sauna there would be an issue but I don't think condensation is going to do anything. If it did, it would probably cause a short and fry your amp. Amps not working coming in from the cold are probably because of some other issue I'm guessing that's temp related.

Vacuum tubes are going to be different. I would think it's more of an issue of the bulb heating rapidly while being very cold.

I'll agree that slow temperature changes are always a good idea. Just as you wouldn't take your extremely cold bass out of a bag into a hot environment, the same should apply to any piece of gear. Opening up the zipper to let it air out won't ever hurt.
 
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#46
Condensation is NOT only produced by there being humid air between you and the item in question. Anyone who has dealt with camera and/or telescope lenses knows that. While I already mentioned that I doubt cold was the issue with that amp, condensation on a circuit board can sometimes cause havoc far short of a dead short. That's especially true of sophisticated circuitry. Granted, an amp would have to have been extremely cold for anything approaching such problems to occur. Then there's the potential capacitor isues I mentioned.
 
#47
Huy Nguyen said:
I would think that most places where it's cold with snow will also be very dry. Any condensation will go away very quickly. Your goggles fog up because there's humid air between you and the lens. The internals are not going to have moisture inside to have such a thing happen. If it does get condensation, it would be on the outside, not the inside.
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Well, If you go from a freezing and (besides you) uninhabited van into a warm room with a hundred people sweating and breathing, then I think you have to allow for a generous amount of condensation all around.
 
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#48
Again, the condensation happens on the outside. If the inside is dry then moisture can only condense on the exterior. Water vapor can't magically pass through metal and it would be difficult to get enough moisture to somehow pass between the ventilation slots enough to even cause condensation.
drurb said:
Condensation is NOT only produced by there being humid air between you and the item in question. Anyone who has dealt with camera and/or telescope lenses knows that. While I already mentioned that I doubt cold was the issue with that amp, condensation on a circuit board can sometimes cause havoc far short of a dead short. That's especially true of sophisticated circuitry. Granted, an amp would have to have been extremely cold for anything approaching such problems to occur. Then there's the potential capacitor isues I mentioned.
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There may be a big difference getting a little misted due to water vapor trapped between the lenses and causing a short in an amp. It has to be enough condensation to make the short happen. Meanwhile, fogging on lenses doesn't take much to make a lense useless.

In any case, as I said before, opening your gear bags the moment you arrive will also help any acclimation to make it a moot point. Do this for your bass, do it for your gear. Big deal, the cure is simple.
 
#49
Huy Nguyen said:
Again, the condensation happens on the outside. If the inside is dry then moisture can only condense on the exterior. Water vapor can't magically pass through metal and it would be difficult to get enough moisture to somehow pass between the ventilation slots enough to even cause condensation.

There may be a big difference getting a little misted due to water vapor trapped between the lenses and causing a short in an amp. It has to be enough condensation to make the short happen. Meanwhile, fogging on lenses doesn't take much to make a lense useless.

In any case, as I said before, opening your gear bags the moment you arrive will also help any acclimation to make it a moot point. Do this for your bass, do it for your gear. Big deal, the cure is simple.
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Seems you didn't consider what I actually said. I said condensation is not likely to be of an amount to cause a dead short but can wreak havoc on sophisticated electronics. A dead short is not the only way that condensation can be a problem. That said, I agree that condensation is not likely to form on the interior surfaces of an amp. It would take some very cold conditions and a rapid transition to a warm, humid environment. Under such circumstances, given that PC boards are typically quite open to the environment through the vents, it could occur. The water wouldn't have to "magically" pass through metal. Again, I agree with you that it's not likely to be a real problem unless conditions are quite extreme but not based on your reasoning and descriptions.

As for lenses, water vapor cannot magically pass through glass. :) There, the water vapor forms on the surfaces. I agree with you that opening the bag and waiting a bit would likely avoid virtually any issue in virtually all real-world circumstances. That's not what was reported to have been done at all and it's good advice.

Much ado about nothing. I think we agree on that. :)
 
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#53
Other weird things may be going on. For instance, my Focus S.A would rattle as if a part had broken loose inside, but the amp worked fine.

So one day I open it up to see what's going on and find a chip loosely bouncing around! I had to do multiple inspections to confirm that none of the parts of the circuit board had broken somehow. I guess something fell into the chassis during manufacturing. Still works dependably as ever.
 
#54
Huy Nguyen said:
Other weird things may be going on. For instance, my Focus S.A would rattle as if a part had broken loose inside, but the amp worked fine.

So one day I open it up to see what's going on and find a chip loosely bouncing around! I had to do multiple inspections to confirm that none of the parts of the circuit board had broken somehow. I guess something fell into the chassis during manufacturing. Still works dependably as ever.
Click to expand...
Potato chip?
 
#58
seamonkey said:
Cars are full of electronics and they do just fine in sub zero. Things have to get really cold to hurt things but bass amps are not designed or tested for the cold.
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Word!:)

drurb said:
I agree with you that opening the bag and waiting a bit would likely avoid virtually any issue in virtually all real-world circumstances.
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Like I said before, I think it's much better to wait first before you open the bag. The warmer the gear is before you open it up, the less condensation. If time is short, however, maybe there is an argument for unpacking sooner and waiting as long as possible before powering up. Then the gear would warm up faster than if it was in its case, and hopefully the condensation would have dried up. Still, I think it's best to avoid condensation in the first place and wait as long as possible before unpacking. Even if the circuit boards are dry when you power up, having had water on them at all seems undesirable.
Also, never immediately unpack a frozen instrument, unless it's made of aluminum or plastic:)
See? I'm trying to use more Smileys:)
 
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#59
Uncletoad said:
This all seems needlessly paranoid to me. I've been gigging for decades and left all my amps in the cold van or truck for extended periods of time. I bring them in from the freezing cold, set them up and they work flawlessly. I can't recall one maintainence issue related to cold or condensation...
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Same here, no issues ever.
 

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