If you look at Goran’s EHR-M large diaphragm condenser it works essentially the same way as his pickup. This microphone has a triangular diaphragm with fixed corners.
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Double Bass Ehrlund "Sweet Spot", anyone?
- Thread starter William Hoffman
- Start date
The EAP uses piezo foil which is a piezoelectric plastic foil. This is also the case for the Shadow NFX which is a bridge foot pickup.
Almost all other piezoelectric pickups use piezoelectric ceramic which has very different mechanical properties like resonance frequency and damping.
You won’t say dropping a plastic plate sounds the same as dropping a ceramic plate, do you?
And even the ceramic piezos can differ themselves due to physical dimensions (thick or thin) and bonding as well as damping by the clamping force around it.
Piezo pickups do NOT have all the same characteristics. But it seems that this is hard to get this in other people’s heads since all the early piezoelectric pickups were ceramic.
Almost all other piezoelectric pickups use piezoelectric ceramic which has very different mechanical properties like resonance frequency and damping.
You won’t say dropping a plastic plate sounds the same as dropping a ceramic plate, do you?
And even the ceramic piezos can differ themselves due to physical dimensions (thick or thin) and bonding as well as damping by the clamping force around it.
Piezo pickups do NOT have all the same characteristics. But it seems that this is hard to get this in other people’s heads since all the early piezoelectric pickups were ceramic.
interesting a plastic piezo foil. So does the Piezo part of it just mean a substance that turns vibration into electric current without additional electricity (like a mic?). Or does the piezo foil share some other similar quality. I had an APTflex pickup that was a very flexible piezo underfoot pickup (like the realist) . The sound could be really natural or really really terrible depending (I owned it before I had a well buffered mind so I didn't know why it only sounded good sometimes).
But I like the idea of a piezo foil that is thin enough to be used like a mic diaphragm. Looking forward to trying this again.
I remember on my large thin bass that has a hugely complex lower end where it often felt like there was so much vibration that sympathetic resonance often obfuscated clarity, having the EAP was not an enhancement but a confusion of sound....I remember looking for placement spots with clairty. I think with my small bass there might be a better distribution of tones represented in the sonic picture. (Kristian seemed to say this early in the EAP thread where he said he didint like it on his big bass but did on his 1/4 size) .
But I like the idea of a piezo foil that is thin enough to be used like a mic diaphragm. Looking forward to trying this again.
I remember on my large thin bass that has a hugely complex lower end where it often felt like there was so much vibration that sympathetic resonance often obfuscated clarity, having the EAP was not an enhancement but a confusion of sound....I remember looking for placement spots with clairty. I think with my small bass there might be a better distribution of tones represented in the sonic picture. (Kristian seemed to say this early in the EAP thread where he said he didint like it on his big bass but did on his 1/4 size) .
I believe that the Aptflex and the Ehrlund have similarities, I remember the Aptflex was described as an “electret film”pickup in the companies specifications.
Same here, since I onlp play 5/8th’s and 1/8 th’s basses the Ehrlund EAP sounds great. It does sound perfectly fine on my wife’s 3/4 size Carl Knilling
Piezo foil has too much mass and is too inflexible to work as an air mic. Contact mics work different than air mics.
With an air mic, the mic body stays in place and the air moves the membrane. Since there is not much mass in air, the membrane needs to be light to get accelerated quickly enough to follow the air pressure.
With contact mics the body of the mic is bonded to the instrument and moves with it whereas the membrane (more or less) stays in place because of the inertia of the membrane which often takes a weight in the middle to enlarge the inertia. Since it is a closed system (at least typically) and the inertia is very high compared to an air flow, contact mics are not sensitive to air transmitted sound.
BUT, the instrument might get influenced by air vibration an this as well as any knocking at the instrument gets transferred to the contact mic.
So, if you knock your instrument as part of your playing, it might be louder and sound differently than you are used from purely acoustic sound radiation.
BTW, I like to hear some high mids in my amplified (pizz) sound to be able to correct my poor intonation and there was not much of it with the Ehrlund in a position along the bassbar that sounded good bowed.
I‘m more happy with my AKG C411 (if there is a chance I can play my bass on stage at all with more than a 10 second sound check). More highs and I play a big 7/8 or 4/4 110 cm 5-string (with a high C) that has a lot of the lower end.
The Ehrlund would sound better pizz if I would put it closer to the bridge, but then bowed sound is a bit less polite.
Same position for the Ehrlund and AKG C411.
With an air mic, the mic body stays in place and the air moves the membrane. Since there is not much mass in air, the membrane needs to be light to get accelerated quickly enough to follow the air pressure.
With contact mics the body of the mic is bonded to the instrument and moves with it whereas the membrane (more or less) stays in place because of the inertia of the membrane which often takes a weight in the middle to enlarge the inertia. Since it is a closed system (at least typically) and the inertia is very high compared to an air flow, contact mics are not sensitive to air transmitted sound.
BUT, the instrument might get influenced by air vibration an this as well as any knocking at the instrument gets transferred to the contact mic.
So, if you knock your instrument as part of your playing, it might be louder and sound differently than you are used from purely acoustic sound radiation.
BTW, I like to hear some high mids in my amplified (pizz) sound to be able to correct my poor intonation and there was not much of it with the Ehrlund in a position along the bassbar that sounded good bowed.
I‘m more happy with my AKG C411 (if there is a chance I can play my bass on stage at all with more than a 10 second sound check). More highs and I play a big 7/8 or 4/4 110 cm 5-string (with a high C) that has a lot of the lower end.
The Ehrlund would sound better pizz if I would put it closer to the bridge, but then bowed sound is a bit less polite.
Same position for the Ehrlund and AKG C411.
Yeah truth is I havbe about 8 different ways of getting truly excellent amplified sound. I don't need anything more. But my curiosity gets the better of me.
Lately I have come to the conclusion that the Wilson can sound really excellent if it goes thru a tube preamp (but less so if you then go to another preamp like the Felix) The Yamahiko can sound fantastic with or without tubes and blends very well with any mic (contact or air) and with a tube buffer can sound great by itself. Etc...I could get into how they blend too, but...
I don't foresee using the EAP by itself but blended and it may not work at all for me. ALthough who knows maybe on this bass with a tube buffer the EAP will sound great.
I really like the Ischell blended with a piezo (on this bass) -natural highs fat clear punchy bottom and I guess I am hoping the EAP is like that but less brittle. (The Ischell on my small bass can get salty.) THe Remic green also works really well blended on this bass but is more of a PITA to either leave mounted or mount everytime and IT (if you solo it unblended) can sound like "Why am I going thru the trouble for this horrible sound) but then when you mix a piezo in it can sound fantastic.
So my hope is that the EAP will blend well and sound good with arco on this bass. Should be here tomorrow but i'll have to solder a female jack on there and shorten the cable.
Thanks @iamthebassplayr for digging into your pickup drawer and hooking me up, that was solid, Jackson.
Lately I have come to the conclusion that the Wilson can sound really excellent if it goes thru a tube preamp (but less so if you then go to another preamp like the Felix) The Yamahiko can sound fantastic with or without tubes and blends very well with any mic (contact or air) and with a tube buffer can sound great by itself. Etc...I could get into how they blend too, but...
I don't foresee using the EAP by itself but blended and it may not work at all for me. ALthough who knows maybe on this bass with a tube buffer the EAP will sound great.
I really like the Ischell blended with a piezo (on this bass) -natural highs fat clear punchy bottom and I guess I am hoping the EAP is like that but less brittle. (The Ischell on my small bass can get salty.) THe Remic green also works really well blended on this bass but is more of a PITA to either leave mounted or mount everytime and IT (if you solo it unblended) can sound like "Why am I going thru the trouble for this horrible sound) but then when you mix a piezo in it can sound fantastic.
So my hope is that the EAP will blend well and sound good with arco on this bass. Should be here tomorrow but i'll have to solder a female jack on there and shorten the cable.
Thanks @iamthebassplayr for digging into your pickup drawer and hooking me up, that was solid, Jackson.
Don't feel too bad. That's how I wound up with 28 amps.
I've been controlling myself for a few years now, but you know how it goes
.I've used the EAP quite a bit for at least ten years(I forget exactly). On my bass the pizz is very good and the arco isn't bad where I have it placed- right under the E foot. The only time I don't use it is in loud situations, which I try to avoid if possible anyway. I've used it with and without the Ehrlund preamp, with a Fishman(the old one), an EDM-1, and straight into a Walter Woods. I frankly didn't notice much difference between them except that the Headway was noisier. Having said all that, I have to mention that my main goal for the last few years has been to have as simple and compact a rig as I can and then get the best results I can from that. The whole idea of blending and miking and that whole process, which I have done in the past, makes me want to take a nap. The compromises in sound quality, if there are any significant ones, are frankly secondary. I'm happy enough with what I'm getting, the people I play with and listeners who comment seem happy, so there you go.
Good words Brice, I had fought with pickups for so many years before I got the Ehrlund. The Realist's sound was an improvement over the Underwood with arco passages, that's for sure, but IME the louder you tried to play with the Realist the worse it sounded. It wasn't suited
for playing concerts on stages in an auditorium, although I did use the Realist in those venues quite a bit. The EAP doesn't have to be mounted under the foot of a bridge (Although David Gage and Ned Steinberg have solved that issue with the Life Line version of the Realist)
and you don't have to use metal adjusters on your bridge to accommodate the Full Circle. It's the perfect solution for me. Just my take. I do not use the Ehrlund Preamp as there are better options out there IME.
On my small bass, the EAP sounds fantastic. First spot, right over the bass bar 2 in. south of the E foot (standard spot) is rockin. Sounds utterly great going into the Sarno V8. I thought if I was gunna use it, I was gong to mix it with another pickup but after a few hours with it, Methinks it is going to work just fine on it's own. I guess I'll try blending it when I get bored but man this ticks all the boxes on this bass. Treble,bass mids all in nice proportion, even, airy, what's not to like?
I gotta say after running it thru the Felix and Sarno V8 Octal tube wonderpre, the tubes are where it's at.
I definitely like it so far, with all the airy-ness of the pickup as far from the top as possible rather then compressed into the top. Really mic like, lots of gain no feedback.
Thumbs up.
Only negative? Why put a male 1/4in on there? (I know his preamp)but really that is just not how it is going to be used mostly.
I gotta say after running it thru the Felix and Sarno V8 Octal tube wonderpre, the tubes are where it's at.
I definitely like it so far, with all the airy-ness of the pickup as far from the top as possible rather then compressed into the top. Really mic like, lots of gain no feedback.
Thumbs up.
Only negative? Why put a male 1/4in on there? (I know his preamp)but really that is just not how it is going to be used mostly.
This varies from user to user. As the pickup is intended for use with the proprietary preamp, it makes perfect sense to terminate with a 1/4" plug. Nothing is stopping you from changing it to something that suits your specific needs.
This thread might give you an idea: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/1-4-jack-holder.1354302/f
Yeah just tried it with tbe Felix , sounds great but not like running thru the tubes first. Man this pickup thru the Sarno V8 is crazy good... I can see blending it ( or more likely just switching to a dryer pickup where the EAP’s body resonance gets in the way) but it sounds mic’d. Thru the Felix it sounds a little cold or sterile
On my Spada the upper register just comes alive with this pickup, like a whole other instrument above the octave.
On my Spada the upper register just comes alive with this pickup, like a whole other instrument above the octave.
Also and really cool for this pickup especially is the Sarno variable imp acts really well ( so far in my living room) as an HPF. On my bass the more open tone off the node of the bassbar has some low resonance that cuts right out by dialing the imp down . Cool
I love the EAP preamp, not for the sound, particulaly, but because I can adjust the volume so easily with one hand, instantly, without having to go to Walter Woods, nearby.
Yeah Loving this sound on my bass. Really interesting how much more organically the pickup deals with right hand placement. I like plucking the strings way down at the end of the fingerboard. With a normal piezo it can create a hyper attack a little unnatural. (think Ron Carter tone). Playing down at the end of the board is a very clear and organic bell like ping sound with a mic (think Larry Grenadier) but using just a mic is too problematic for most of us. With the EAP playing down at the end of the board sounds the bell ping without the over percussive attack. Super cool. Moreover playing all the positions on the board with right hand (higher up is more soft toned etc) sounds great. In other words the EAP handles that particular dynamic (right hand plucking position) way better (IMO)
I love the way the sound changes usefully along that right hand spectrum.
I love the way the sound changes usefully along that right hand spectrum.
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It's also very good with Arco reproduction as it captures the subtile differences when you change pressure or bow stroke. The EAP doesn't require changing the EQ to playing pizzicato mixed with arco solos, because the although you do get a volume bump
it doesn't change character or timbre. I have one of the few EAP pickups that were sold in the U.S. by Front End Audio and manufactured by Pearl in Sweden. It's a bit thicker than the production design, the cable is a bit more microphonic, but it sounds incredible
not that my other Ehrlund doesn't sound great, it certainly does.
I’m so happy to hear this! The EAP sounds great on my bass as well but since the bass itself is so “unbalanced” the EAP makes it even worse. Hopefully I’ll get a similar result as you on Serena. Did you try it live yet? Sometimes it can get “lost in the mix” if it is to loud but sometimes it works better than traditional piezos. It’s a mystery!
The EAP tends to work best on basses that have a really nice acoustic tone. If the bass is uneven or has weird resonances, you're probably better off with a bridge mounted pickup that will focus more on the pure vibrations of the strings and less on the resonance of the body.
If it is simply a matter of balance, you may be able to compensate with careful use of parametric EQ. A tilt EQ with the right tilt point might work as well, but I have never seen a tilt EQ with a continuously variable tilt frequency.
