EMBB Caprice/Cutlass & Fender Dimension, Why they didn't catch on.

[metron]

Exactly. Plus, many guitarists and bassists love a "classic" (ex. P-Bass, J-Bass, Strat, Tele, Mustang, Jaguar, Les Paul, SG, etc.). Why change? + it's sounded good and has looked cool for decades + my favorite players use them.

Even the scores of hot-rodded Fender-style instruments that are available (ex. Tom Anderson guitars, Sadowsky basses, etc.) offer a "safe, warm and cozy" option for folks looking for that classic sound, feel and/or look with a few more improvements.

Not sure if "why change" is a serious question. My post was meant to be a dig, but not at anyone in particular.

While there is merit to embracing established standards, there are a whole host of reasons why change, diversity, doing something unique, etc are good things.

 

[JimmyM]

I've not played either of these, but I've noticed a common theme.

When a company does the same thing, they're told they should switch it up.

When a company tries something different, they're told to stay in their lane.

You just described Talkbass to a T. Meanwhile, if any of them ran a company like Fender or Ernie Ball, they'd bankrupt them within a year.

 

[roller]

Not sure if "why change" is a serious question. My post was meant to be a dig, but not at anyone in particular.

While there is merit to embracing established standards, there are a whole host of reasons why change, diversity, doing something unique, etc are good things.

Not gonna disagree with change being good. Hipshot bridges, Nordstrand pickups and preamps, chambered bodies and spoke-wheel truss rod adjusters are merely a few examples of how change and a fresh approach can be a beautiful thing.

As I wrote, "many guitarists and bassists love a 'classic.'" But many don't subscribe to this way of thinking. Everyone may have varying mileage on this topic... and that's cool.

 

[metron]

Not gonna disagree with change being good. Hipshot bridges, Nordstrand pickups and preamps, chambered bodies and spoke-wheel truss rod adjusters are merely a few examples of how change and a fresh approach can be a beautiful thing.

As I wrote, "many guitarists and bassists love a 'classic.'" But many don't subscribe to this way of thinking. Everyone may have varying mileage on this topic... and that's cool.

Exactly! Hey I have a p bass too...

 

[retslock]

Well, people are dumb. I know because I am one myself! We buy something comfortable rather than taking the chance on something new and different. What should catch on doesn't because what we already have is more than enough.

My theory, at least. I may be wrong.

I tend to agree with this and the better mouse trap theory as well. While they may be good instruments, does the market really need them? I don't think the prices helped either.
We in the western world are up against a cost-of-labour issue that we can't or aren't prepared to contend with. Asian countries will beat us every time with cheaper labour. Australian and American made goods may be high quality but our cost of living demands higher wages and that means more expensive goods.

 

[kerrycares]

Too much dough.
Not enough go.
Competition like Bassmods is eating into their market.

 

[markjazzbassist]

Number 1 if you want to beat someone at their own game it has to be priced lower than theirs. EBMM wasn't low enough to make people want to try it over a fender.

Look at the Ibanez ATK, they have The market on the "cheap but still stingray" bass.

 

[retslock]

Exactly. Plus, many guitarists and bassists love a "classic" (ex. P-Bass, J-Bass, Strat, Tele, Mustang, Jaguar, Les Paul, SG, etc.). Why change? + it's sounded good and has looked cool for decades + my favorite players use them.

Even the scores of hot-rodded Fender-style instruments that are available (ex. Tom Anderson guitars, Sadowsky basses, etc.) offer a "safe, warm and cozy" option for folks looking for that classic sound, feel and/or look with a few more improvements.

This is a most peculiar phenomenon and I have to say I'm as much a part of it as anybody. I can't equate any other product with this kind of traditionalism. If a car was made today exactly as a '57 Chev was (one of my all time faves) I imagine it's market share would be very limited. Why do so many of us love these old instruments. I know plenty don't but plenty do and the manufacturers keep churning them out.
Just to clarify, I own an Ibanez that I love and a custom bass that I also love so I'm not averse to change, I just love my old P bass in a special way.

 

[roller]

This is a most peculiar phenomenon and I have to say I'm as much a part of it as anybody. I can't equate any other product with this kind of traditionalism. If a car was made today exactly as a '57 Chev was (one of my all time faves) I imagine it's market share would be very exclusive and limited. Why do so many of us love these old instruments. I know plenty don't but plenty do and the manufacturers keep churning them out.
Just to clarify, I own an Ibanez that I love and a custom bass that I also love so I'm not averse to change, I just love my old P bass in a special way.

The classic American guitar/bass for a guitarist/bassist is kinda like the cowboy hat for a cowboy -- sure, many variations have been concocted for this type of hat... but if you want to be a real cowboy, you gotta go with the classic.

 

[Mason Nagy]

Ernie Mall Busic Ban

 

[flojob]

If you price it like a novelty, people will treat it like one.

 

[Stranger Danger]

Since I saw an announcement on the forum that Music Man is ending production of the Caprice and Cutlass basses, it got me thinking about the Fender Dimension as well. I had a chance to spend some time with a used American Dimension recently and it was actually a really nice bass. Well put together, solid preamp, and I actually thought it did the stingray thing well while bringing a different flavor to the whole experience, both visually and tonally.

I also sampled both passive Ernie ball offerings at different times and they were also impressive as well. Excellent build quality and while I won't say total sonic carbon copies of the Fenders they are modeled after, they are still in the right ball park.

What's obvious here is that both companies were trying to take a bite of the other's apple. So in the end, what went wrong? I was always interested in a Caprice and will probably still try to nab one at some point, though now it might be harder.

In my mind what doomed the Ernie Ball basses was the recent price increase. I think had both the Cutlass and Caprice remained at a $1600ish price they would have still had parity with American made Fender's and been able to compete but in the mid $2000 range, they are approaching custom build prices and I think that sealed their fate.

That being said, I would love it if they would release the cutlass and caprice under the SBMM line. If one of those priced out around $700 to $800, I could see them selling well and at least keeping the models alive in some form, and then maybe doing limited BFR releases of them ever now and then.

Now the Dimension. I'm not sure why this one didn't work. The bass felt really nice and I might even venture to say had a more even frequency response that some stingrays I've played (the pickup was interesting). I think in the end there just wasn't enough marketing behind it. Fender's angle here was probably we have a better mouse trap, but I don't think there was enough messaging behind it.

Another thing I wonder is had things been reversed and EBMM released the dimension and called it stingray 2 and Fender resleased the Caprice and Cutlass and called it the Fender's modern series, would both have fared better since each company would have been "Staying in Their Lane" so to speak. I guess in the end it just speaks to what customers expect of particular companies.

The last paragraph here is very interesting. I hadn't considered that before but I think you're right. Now EBMM has done something similar with redesign of the Stingray with the new Specials but I would love to see Fender make something like the Caprice.

 

[Camaro69]

I avoided the dimension because the pick guard sucked

 

[retslock]

I avoided the dimension because the pick guard sucked

Yep I hated it too. Amazing how such a little thing can put you off but it seemed to matter just enough for me to not be that interested. I already have a bass or two that work really well so - no deal.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

From my point of view as a 50+ yr. veteran of this business, two big things spring to mind.
Price point. These basses all should be available for well under $1500. I was going to say a thousand cause they aren't worth any more than that to me. These prices 1500 and up totally turn me off. When I can find truly boutique basses well under 2K not to mention under 3K.
I would consider a Squire HH Dimension just to try one. Not 1k plus. Especially just for an extended test run.
Secondly, these manufacturers fail to understand is that people in general, and bass players in particular are slow to change. And more importantly most players don't buy a bass every year (don't let my SO hear me say that) or even every 2 to 5 years. As a consequence these models that come out and go away in say, 5 years (random guess) do not even get looked at seriously by most potential buyers. They might play one in a store once in awhile. If they're lucky enough to even see one. Very few guy/gals run out and buy a new bass just because it's a new model. They have see it and play it a few times just to get acclimatized. Especially if a deviation from what they're used to.
I have only just now become curious about trying out these basses, Cutlass, Capri, or Dimension Bass. I have not even seen two of the three. I haven't looked for them but that's not my point. I finally bought an MTD Heir recently with a MM style PU. Yes I know, nothing like a real MM. I really have no need (I think) for any of them but I'd like to get into a real MM style instrument as it's one of the few "types" of pickups I haven't explored in some depth. Crazy considering how long I've been at it. Just my post gig ramblings.

 

[Mili]

it is NOT a P/J

I thought it's a PJ!!!! GAS off. Thank you.

 

[LadyLoveStingRay5]

I thought it's a PJ!!!! GAS off. Thank you.

You are welcome. Glad I could help .

 

[Rib 13]

From my point of view....*snip*

new models requiring a long kindling phase is a good observation

 

[muggsy]

Secondly, [what] these manufacturers fail to understand is that people in general, and bass players in particular are slow to change.

I think these manufacturers understand that quite well. It is, after all, their business to understand such things. But I appreciate that EBMM doesn't let that stop them from introducing new models. The Bongo has had more than its share of detractors since Day 1, but they're still selling because they're great, innovative basses. Not for everyone, but nothing is. I picked up a Big Al before they were discontinued, and it's awesome. Had an issue with one of the pickups a while back, and EBMM Customer Service took care of me, even though the bass was no longer in production. If I was in the market for another bass right now, I'd grab a used Caprice in a heartbeat.

 

[buldog5151bass]

People not only buy what they know, but are less likely to spend a lot of money on something unknown. Even if it were the same price, if the EBs were intended to replicate the Fender, if it costs the same, why not just buy the Fender (and vice versa)?