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Epifani Club! I've seen the "light"!

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#881
A convo with another bass player got me thinking about this DIST thing. As an example: in a band setting, if you're playing through a 4 Ohm 112, do you ever have your amp maxed out so that you wouldn't be able to turn it up the extra click to make up the couple decible difference between the power you're getting and the decreased power you'd get if the cab was 8 Ohms? What's the decible difference between 300W and 500W, all things being equal? If I had a modular 2x112 rig, I'd only be using a single cab for the smaller, quieter gigs and I'd pull out the second cab if I needed more volume. Why would I worry about getting more volume with a single cab if I have another one waiting in the wing for just that? I don't want to put the same wattage through a single 112 as I do through two of them. I just can't see myself playing a gig in which 500W through 2x112 would be overkill but 300W through a single 112 wouldn't be enough.

At first I was jazzed about the idea of impedence switching, but now I'm wondering about its practicality if the price is sacrificed.

Please, somebody help me understand!
 
#882
davio said:
A convo with another bass player got me thinking about this DIST thing. As an example: in a band setting, if you're playing through a 4 Ohm 112, do you ever have your amp maxed out so that you wouldn't be able to turn it up the extra click to make up the couple decible difference between the power you're getting and the decreased power you'd get if the cab was 8 Ohms? What's the decible difference between 300W and 500W, all things being equal? If I had a modular 2x112 rig, I'd only be using a single cab for the smaller, quieter gigs and I'd pull out the second cab if I needed more volume. Why would I worry about getting more volume with a single cab if I have another one waiting in the wing for just that? I don't want to put the same wattage through a single 112 as I do through two of them. I just can't see myself playing a gig in which 500W through 2x112 would be overkill but 300W through a single 112 wouldn't be enough.

At first I was jazzed about the idea of impedence switching, but now I'm wondering about its practicality if the price is sacrificed.

Please, somebody help me understand!
Click to expand...

Your example of a 112 is not a good one, since you are correct, 300 watts will drive a single 112 to 'full output' easily, and adding another results in that 'optimal' 4ohm impedance for most heads, giving you more cone area, more power, more low end, more volume, etc.

However.... when you are using a large cab like a 212 or 410, and a relatively low powered amp, the difference in an additional 200 watts (300 to 500 in your example) can be HUGE. Yes, the absolute volume won't be massively increased (between 2 and 3db... which is quite a bit actually). The BIG difference is the nature of the low end, which will typically sound more open and less compressed, especially if you are running up against the power amp limiting at 8ohms.

I would think the cab format that would most benefit from this impedance switching capability would be the 210 cab. A high powered 210 can probably take all a moderate powered head can give it (i.e., 4ohm stand alone use), and using two at 8ohms would add another 3db of volume when used together with a 4ohm minimum SS head.

However, +1... not really interesting to me. I use a combination of either a single large 410 or 212 at 4ohms, or one or two small cabs at 8ohms with my moderately powered SS heads, and it works beautifully. I guess this would have been a bigger deal a number of years ago before all these heads came out that were safe to operate at 2ohms. IMO.

Edit: I guess the other interesting use would be if you had a combination of a non-bridgeable stereo type amp (like the Epi902 or Genz Shuttle 12 Max) and also used a monoblock 4ohm minimum SS head like the Markbass stuff, the AG500, etc. on occasion. You could use two cabs set at 4ohms each to get the maximum power out of the 'stereo' head, and use the 8ohm setting to use both with a 4ohm minimum SS head. My guess is, those with this need are about .0001% of the bass amp market though!
 
#883
KJung said:
I would think the cab format that would most benefit from this impedance switching capability would be the 210 cab. A high powered 210 can probably take all a moderate powered head can give it (i.e., 4ohm stand alone use), and using two at 8ohms would add another 3db of volume when used together with a 4ohm minimum SS head.
Click to expand...

KJung said:
I guess this would have been a bigger deal a number of years ago before all these heads came out that were safe to operate at 2ohms. IMO.
Click to expand...

I think when read together, this points again to the seeming futility, though. Rather than spending the money on impedance switching cabs, why not just get two 4 Ohms 210s and one of the multitude of heads that can run at 2 Ohms?
 
#884
KJung said:
Edit: I guess the other interesting use would be if you had a combination of a non-bridgeable stereo type amp (like the Epi902 or Genz Shuttle 12 Max) and also used a monoblock 4ohm minimum SS head like the Markbass stuff, the AG500, etc. on occasion. You could use two cabs set at 4ohms each to get the maximum power out of the 'stereo' head, and use the 8ohm setting to use both with a 4ohm minimum SS head. My guess is, those with this need are about .0001% of the bass amp market though!
Click to expand...

Very good point.
 
#885
davio said:
I think when read together, this points again to the seeming futility, though. Rather than spending the money on impedance switching cabs, why not just get two 4 Ohms 210s and one of the multitude of heads that can run at 2 Ohms?
Click to expand...

+1 I guess the issue would be if you were absolutely in love with the tone and performance of a 4ohm minimum head like the Epi heads, the Markbass heads, the AG500, etc., and still had the need to use various cab combinations.

Again, I agree with you... just trying to logic through who would benefit from this feature. Assuming these don't really go into production until 2010 (which would be my guess), I would think the 2ohm operation thing would become even more prevalent. Who knows?

I would guess this is a bit of a 'test balloon' at this point, and that if it catches on (i.e., there is enough dealer/retailer interest shown at NAMM and beyond), there will be a UL Series III line introduced, with the main difference versus Series II being this feature. It doesn't really make much sense to me to have the UL line, and then this DIST line (I believe they are both neo and the box designs are similar), going at the same time. Again, just noodlin' and guessing.
 
#886
A post on another forum by a power amp designer with some credits to his name regarding the power differences:

let's apply some real science™ to this before we get too far afield.

as we should all know -- and if you don't know this already, learn it now -- our hearing is logarithmic. that is why we measure things in dB. it doesn't matter if 1,000 is a much bigger looking number than 590, or if 22% is a huge number in financial terms.

all other things held equal (same player, same bass, same cabinet), it takes 3dB more power just for the power increase to be noticeable. the increase from 590W to 1,000W is 2.3dB:

10 * log (1,000 / 590) = 2.29148dB

in fact it takes twice the power for the increase to be just noticeable and potentially worth the effort. say it with me:

"if you want to get louder, add more speakers."

switching between 4O and 8O is great for marketing. it helps you win the race for watts. but it doesn't make you any louder.
Click to expand...
 
#888
davio said:
A post on another forum by a power amp designer with some credits to his name regarding the power differences:
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is the kind of oversimplification that IMO is quite misleading. It all depends on how much power a speaker can handle, and where you are starting from when you increase power.

Going from a 'non pushed 600 watts' to an 'mostly unused 900 watts' in a cab that reaches its 'thermal limits' or x-max or whatever at 500 watts is pretty useless. Going from a pushed and 'power amp limited' 300 watts to a clean, open 500 watts into a cab that can easily handle the additional 200 watts.... priceless:D
 
#889
KJung said:
Going from a pushed and 'power amp limited' 300 watts to a clean, open 500 watts into a cab that can easily handle the additional 200 watts.... priceless:D
Click to expand...

Nice. :) However, again, on the practical side...why would you use a single 8 Ohm cab if you're going to be pushing your amp beyond its limits knowing it's not going to be enough for your needs? If you were smart you'd add a cab. If you were never going to use a second cab you'd probably have a 4 Ohm cab to begin with.

It comes back to "How big is the gap between when you'd stop using a single 8 Ohm cab and when you'd use two of them?" If there's any gap at all (which I don't think there really is), I don't think the negligible difference between that single cab in 4 Ohms and 8 Ohms does enough to fill it to make up for what I'm sure will be a price bump for the feature.

This is all, of course, assuming you have enough power for your needs. If you don't, I think you'd be better served switching amps than cabs.
 
#890
davio said:
Nice. :) However, again, on the practical side...why would you use a single 8 Ohm cab if you're going to be pushing your amp beyond its limits knowing it's not going to be enough for your needs? If you were smart you'd add a cab. If you were never going to use a second cab you'd probably have a 4 Ohm cab to begin with.
Click to expand...

Again, you are preaching to the choir. My little cabs that don't handle a bunch of power are all 8ohms, so that I can use one or two with my 4ohm minimum moderately powered SS heads, depending on the volume I need on a given gig. My large cabs are 4ohm 212's or 410's, which can easily handle the 500-600 watts of my moderately powered 4ohm minimum SS heads, and they just thunder.

As Dave Funk posts on occasion, if you are running 2ohms, you bought the wrong cabs:D
 
#891
One thing I just realized: This feature will be nice for the used market. For example, you wouldn't have to sort through a bunch of ads to find one of the right impedance. I don't see how that would directly benefit the company, though.
 
#892
I can think of some big pluses for guys adding cabinets with the switchable thing. I have a very good 2 X 10 cab that is 8 ohms. If I was to buy a 4 X 10 the switchable system would increase the versatility of a 4 ohm head. I could play the 2 x 10 (8) or 4 x 10 (4) alone in the appropriate room and match the impedance to make a 6 X 10 rig for a larger outdoor type venue. I think Ken is right in that this would benefit 2 X 10 owners more then most.

Having said all of that Epifunky may be the worse name a focus group or market man ever devised. I wonder will it come with a black-faced dude on the logo?:D Will the metal players have to wait for the Epirocka, and when is the Epitwangy coming out for the country players?:hiding:
 
#896
I wouldn't use this feature myself, but I'm sure there's guys out that would. Since Epifani is the only company out there at this time doing it the real way, I know there will be a market for these cabs. The fact that they are still lightweight is also a bonus.

I'm still confused about all the product lines they have though, specifically in the low to mid price range. How do the Underground, Epifunky, and Performance lines fit in with each other?
 
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