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Double Bass EQ Pedal for Upright

So i have a Fishman Plat Stage running into my GK MB200 head. I've been playing alot with the knobs to dial in a sound that pleases me, between both the head and preamp. While i can dial in a decent tone, i can't help but think an EQ pedal would greatly enhance my ability to do so. The bass/treble/mid sweep on the Fishman seems kind of limiting.

Would an EQ pedal be a worthy addition to the chain or would you think just springing for a beefier preamp would be a better option? Also, any EQ pedals that you might suggest?

The Fishman Platinum Stage has a 10 Meg input. I have recently learned that the ideal loading for a piezo pickup is generally somewhere between 1-3 Meg, and 10 Meg will cause the pickup to be under damped. The input impedance of your MB200 is 1Meg so try plugging straight into the amp to see if it tightens up the sound any.

I believe EQ can be extremely beneficial, but you need to load the pickup with the proper impedance to buffer the signal before sending it to the EQ. Here's a relatively inexpensive K&K preamp with a 1 Meg input and a three band EQ. K&K Sound Pure Preamp at Gollihur Music - Double Bass, Upright Bass, String Bass Specialists

You could use the K&K to drive an EQ like the Empress ParaEQ that @ddnidd1 mentioned.

When I am amplifying a string bass, I tune it for feedback the same way I tune a PA system. Increase the gain until the bass is almost on the verge feedback and make a mental note of any frequencies that ring out. The next steps of the process varies depending upon if I am using a 31 band graphic or a parametric EQ.

With a 31 band graphic I usually run through and boost all of the frequency bands two at a time. The goal is to identify the hottest 4-5 frequency bands and dip them 6-12dB. Usually I go through three adjacent bands before I decide to make a cut. For example, slowly boost 100Hz and 125Hz then move both bands back to zero. Next, slowly boost 125Hz and 160Hz then move both bands back to zero. If you get the same frequency feeding back between all three bands you know to cut the middle band; but sometimes it doesn't work this way. Sometimes you get a different frequency each time you boost two bands.

After covering three adjacent bands, make a judgment regarding how much headroom before feedback is available and which band is closest to the frequency with the worst problem. You may decide no cut is needed, to cut one frequency 12db, to cut two frequencies 6dB, or to cut three frequencies 3dB. With practice, it will become intuitive.

With a parametric EQ, the process is a bit different. Increase the gain till the bass is on the verge of feedback. Next select a medium, narrow band, apply about 6dB of boost and slowly sweep the frequency control. Keep one hand on the gain control so you can cut it quickly if the feedback gets really bad. Note the frequencies that are most prone to ringing and eliminate them by selecting narrow band filters and dipping them 6-12dB.

If a bunch of frequencies ring close together you can use a wider band filter, but you don't want to cut as much. Try 3-4dB. Same goes for hotspots on the instrument that develop too much sustain as you increase volume, try using a gentle broad band cut.

After dialing in the EQ, it's a good idea to boost the volume to see how much gain before feedback you have built into the system. Turn up and play a bit louder than you expect to for a few minutes to make sure you have plenty of headroom and the tuning works well. Sometimes you might decide to zero out the EQ and try again, especially the first few times you tune a bass this way.

Some of these ideas illustrate that EQ may need adjustment if you drastically change how loud you play. In an effort to minimize the amount of energy the amp puts into the body of the bass, I typically elevate the bottom of my amp to about waist level. But I almost always have full PA support so the amp is only there so I can hear myself.

Hope some of this is helpful.
 
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C3B96F6E-4C4E-4C75-8D21-21473156C165.jpeg


Some of us have had a lot of success with the Tech 21 Para Driver Di for double bass. I put a small HPF2 in front for high input impedence, rumble cut and phase shift.

BTW, if I recall correctly that Boss Bass EQ has a 1 Mohm input impedance. Nice little pedal. Very useful.
 
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If you're using a preamp in front of the GK, make sure that you're only cutting frequencies in this instance and not boosting them. Since your particular amp doesn't have an effects loop, boosting frequencies on the Fishman pre can easily clip the amplifier. Toward that end, my experience has shown that reductive EQ is much better for upright bass than boosting anything at all gain stages.
 
If you are not getting what you want adding more items in the chain isn’t going to help You’ve got to fix the problem.

The first thing I’d do is get an Fdeck HPF and Velcro it to your tailpiece and never leave home without it again. Remove the fish man from the chain. If that doesn’t make things significantly better replace the pickup on your bass. IMO
 
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If you are not getting what you want adding more items in the chain isn’t going to help You’ve got to fix the problem.

Not necessarily true. In this case replacing the preamp with a better preamp is likely to help, and expanding EQ capabilities is likely to help even more, providing the user knows how to use them. Adding unnecessary processing is a bad strategy though as jank is cumulative; so don't stack a bunch of superfluous pedals in series and expect sound nirvana.

The first thing I’d do is get an Fdeck HPF and Velcro it to your tailpiece and never leave home without it again. Remove the fish man from the chain. If that doesn’t make things significantly better replace the pickup on your bass. IMO

An Fdeck HPF pre could be a good improvement here. The input impedance spec I found is 10Meg which has been suggested as above optimal by some respected people. But IMHO a variable HPF would be extremely beneficial with such a modest amp as an MB200. With a more powerful amp and speakers that have extended low frequency capabilities, I have had good luck running without an HPF, but it really depends upon the sound you want, so YMMV.
 
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In this case replacing the preamp with a better preamp is likely to help, and expanding EQ capabilities is likely to help even more...

Not necessarily true. :-)

The OP said that he plays a lot with knobs. When I am generally satisfied with the default sound of my signal chain, I feel no need to fiddle with the knobs. Sometimes I make slight adjustments depending on the room acoustics, and sometimes I make no adjustments whatsoever.

The situation, as described by OP, suggests that there is something in the signal chain which he doesn't like. May be it's the preamp, may be not. But expanding the EQ capabilities, as such, does not cure the underlining problem... He needs to find a signal chain the sound of which he generally likes without fiddling with knobs.
 
Great thread!

Lots of useful suggestions and LOTS of things to review in your signal chain OP. Minimum two preamps to deal with.
Was it Zbysek who suggested removing one of the two?

Just one suggestion to go with all the other tweaking possibilities.

an EQ .... my favorite for bass .. and fixing issues.

Whirlwind Bass Ten

Bass Ten 10 Band EQ FX Pedal - Catalog - Whirlwind


 
Not necessarily true. In this case replacing the preamp with a better preamp is likely to help, and expanding EQ capabilities is likely to help even more, providing the user knows how to use them. Adding unnecessary processing is a bad strategy though as jank is cumulative; so don't stack a bunch of superfluous pedals in series and expect sound nirvana.



An Fdeck HPF pre could be a good improvement here. The input impedance spec I found is 10Meg which has been suggested as above optimal by some respected people. But IMHO a variable HPF would be extremely beneficial with such a modest amp as an MB200. With a more powerful amp and speakers that have extended low frequency capabilities, I have had good luck running without
an HPF, but it really depends upon the sound you want, so YMMV.

I don’t want to be disagreeable but if you’ve got a RS pickup, you’ve got the fish man preamp with EQ and you’ve got a decent little amp and cabinet. AND you are not getting a good sound something in the chain is not doing it’s job. It needs to be found out and replaced. Finding a pickup that really suits the instrument is always the first piece to look at. If the amp does not have a HPF you need to insert one in line it is essential for amplifying double bass.

Essentially you can now plug into any bass guitar amp and get a pretty satisfying sound. If the GKs bakes in tone and EQ points isn’t satisfying to the OP adding an EQ pedal is not the answer.

But you’ve got to work back to the bass it self , then the pick up and HPF before anyone can make those assertions.
 
Not necessarily true. :)

The OP said that he plays a lot with knobs. When I am generally satisfied with the default sound of my signal chain, I feel no need to fiddle with the knobs. Sometimes I make slight adjustments depending on the room acoustics, and sometimes I make no adjustments whatsoever.

The situation, as described by OP, suggests that there is something in the signal chain which he doesn't like. May be it's the preamp, may be not. But expanding the EQ capabilities, as such, does not cure the underlining problem... He needs to find a signal chain the sound of which he generally likes without fiddling with knobs.

You may note I suggested that replacing the Fishman preamp may be part of the solution, so I am not totally disagreeing with you.

The string bass is extremely susceptible to resonances which vary by volume, distance from the amp, and the acoustics of the room. The bass and rig might sound nice at low volume, but when you turn it up things tend to change for the worse.

IMHO, the way to treat this problem is through the use of EQ. Ideally you want to be able to address the resonant modes and feedback loop between the instrument and amp with great precision. By cutting only the problem frequencies you retain a nice full sound. The OP's current rig does not have enough EQ with the necessary precision to suitably address the problem. Most of the EQ is wideband and at a fixed frequency so almost totally useless for this purpose.

Also, rather than spending perhaps $1,000s of dollars trying different pickups, you might be surprised what you can do with EQ if you have the right tools and skills. I worked professionally for over 25 years and used instruments and amps that were owned by the band. I was issued instruments equipped with Barcus Berry, Underwood, various Fishman, and Various Realist pickups. I also worked closely as an audio tech with a bassist who used the Ehrlund EAP. By using EQ I was able to get really good results with almost every pickup. I felt the original Realist (similar to current Copperhead) and Ehrlund were the best sounding and required the least corrective EQ to get a good tone, but all benefited from notch filtering when high volume was required. Most piezo preamps give one notch filter, which is not sufficient. The Empress ParaEQ would be equivalent to 3 notch filters...or use two bands of EQ for notches and one for broadband compensation.

The last touring rig I used had 2 bands of parametric mids plus bass and treble shelving controls. This rig was nice because I used a rack mixer, so I could easily switch between three instruments by simply pushing two buttons at the same time. But sometimes the EQ wasn't quite strong enough to really dial in a good string bass sound at the volume I needed. I was using a 7/8 bass that was really too resonant to be used with a pickup at the time, so it was a bit of a handful to tame.

Years ago I used an amp that had a 31 band graphic in the effects loop. I never had any trouble dialing out weird resonances or getting a good sound from the string bass...the limitation here was the amp only had one channel so I used an AB switch to go between electric and string bass and used the graphic to set gain and EQ differences. Switching instruments was just a bit more hectic.

I totally understand if you have a minimalist approach in regards to EQ. I know several people who refuse to use it because it introduces phase errors. My personal philosophy is EQ is often the only tool available, so I will use freely.
 
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I don’t want to be disagreeable but if you’ve got a RS pickup, you’ve got the fish man preamp with EQ and you’ve got a decent little amp and cabinet. AND you are not getting a good sound something in the chain is not doing it’s job. It needs to be found out and replaced. Finding a pickup that really suits the instrument is always the first piece to look at. If the amp does not have a HPF you need to insert one in line it is essential for amplifying double bass.

Essentially you can now plug into any bass guitar amp and get a pretty satisfying sound. If the GKs bakes in tone and EQ points isn’t satisfying to the OP adding an EQ pedal is not the answer.

But you’ve got to work back to the bass it self , then the pick up and HPF before anyone can make those assertions.

I agree with a lot of your ideas. But you seem to hold the opinion there is a fixed formula for success that works perfectly every time. IMHO, each situation is different. I like a strong/precise EQ because it allows me to deal with the varying situations. Also, if the GKs baked in tone and EQ points don't work...either replace the amp or get an outboard EQ.

I do agree with this: Good bass, good pickup, good signal path, but sometimes you have to polish the turd because you can't afford buy the best of everything. Not sure if you are aware, some pickups are better than others at making a crappy bass sound decent. If I had a really great sounding bass I would invest in an Ehrlund EAP. If I had a crappy plywood bass, I would pull my old Underwood out of the closet and have some fun with EQ. I bought the pickup in the 80s and have EQed it for satisfactory results on several basses when my organization's existing pickups failed, specifically a Fishman BP100 and Realist Copperhead.

I am a big fan of running an HPF in pro sound applications, but never felt it to be absolutely essential with string bass when I had a capable rig. I don't generally run with a lot of bass boost, so rarely have problems with over excursion. As I mentioned in the previous post, in this specific situation with a modest amp, I think an HPF would be a really good idea. But I actually prefer a bit of low frequency bloom with string bass if I have a rig that can reproduce it, so if money is tight, I would rather have a ParaEQ than an HPF. Totally respect that YMMV though :thumbsup:.
 
You may note I suggested that replacing the Fishman preamp may be part of the solution, so I am not totally disagreeing with you.

The string bass is extremely susceptible to resonances which vary by volume, distance from the amp, and the acoustics of the room. The bass and rig might sound nice at low volume, but when you turn it up things tend to change for the worse.

IMHO, the way to treat this problem is through the use of EQ. Ideally you want to be able to address the resonant modes and feedback loop between the instrument and amp with great precision. By cutting only the problem frequencies you retain a nice full sound. The OP's current rig does not have enough EQ with the necessary precision to suitably address the problem. Most of the EQ is wideband and at a fixed frequency so almost totally useless for this purpose.

Also, rather than spending perhaps $1,000s of dollars trying different pickups, you might be surprised what you can do with EQ if you have the right tools and skills. I worked professionally for over 25 years and used instruments and amps that were owned by the band. I was issued instruments equipped with Barcus Berry, Underwood, various Fishman, and Various Realist pickups. I also worked closely as an audio tech with a bassist who used the Ehrlund EAP. By using EQ I was able to get really good results with almost every pickup. I felt the original Realist (similar to current Copperhead) and Ehrlund were the best sounding and required the least corrective EQ to get a good tone, but all benefited from notch filtering when high volume was required. Most piezo preamps give one notch filter, which is not sufficient. The Empress ParaEQ would be equivalent to 3 notch filters...or use two bands of EQ for notches and one for broadband compensation.

The last touring rig I used had 2 bands of parametric mids plus bass and treble shelving controls. This rig was nice because I used a rack mixer, so I could easily switch between three instruments by simply pushing two buttons at the same time. But sometimes the EQ wasn't quite strong enough to really dial in a good string bass sound at the volume I needed. I was using a 7/8 bass that was really too resonant to be used with a pickup at the time, so it was a bit of a handful to tame.

Years ago I used an amp that had a 31 band graphic in the effects loop. I never had any trouble dialing out weird resonances or getting a good sound from the string bass...the limitation here was the amp only had one channel so I used an AB switch to go between electric and string bass and used the graphic to set gain and EQ differences. Switching instruments was just a bit more hectic.

I totally understand if you have a minimalist approach in regards to EQ. I know several people who refuse to use it because it introduces phase errors. My personal philosophy is EQ is often the only tool available, so I will use freely.

In no way, I am underestimating the importance of EQ.

What I wanted to say is that it's pure luck when your rigs sounds exactly as you wish it to sound without any knob-fiddling.

It's kind of like with women: sometimes your try hard to make the relationship work. And all of sudden, you meet a girl who is just perfect fit for you - no need for the "hard work".

I think what OP describes is "this" kind of situation. He does not speak of any resonances or feedback loops, or other problems to be solved...he just says that the sound does not "please him". And I was saying: may be it's the cabinet, which does not please you...or amp...or...

He just needs to move on and find what pleases him as it is, IMHO...
 
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Not necessarily true. :)

The OP said that he plays a lot with knobs. When I am generally satisfied with the default sound of my signal chain, I feel no need to fiddle with the knobs. Sometimes I make slight adjustments depending on the room acoustics, and sometimes I make no adjustments whatsoever.

The situation, as described by OP, suggests that there is something in the signal chain which he doesn't like. May be it's the preamp, may be not. But expanding the EQ capabilities, as such, does not cure the underlining problem... He needs to find a signal chain the sound of which he generally likes without fiddling with knobs.


I will agree that if the bass and pickup don't work well together, or a component in the signal path is not capable of producing quality sound, EQ is unlikely to fix the problem. But you might be surprised by the improvements that EQ can make ;).

When I was touring with the 31 band graphic, I would zero out the EQ on every gig. The idea was to use minimal EQ and only compensate for the specific acoustic problems that manifested in the current circumstances. The resultant EQ curve typically varied quite a bit from one gig to the next.

It took about 3-4 minutes to ring out the bass using the procedure I described in post #21. Usually I notched about 5 frequencies and sometimes implemented a gentle broadband cut across 1 or 2 frequency bands. The broadband cuts might involve dipping 3-5 bands of EQ by no more than 3dB. By cutting the frequencies that want to ring, the response becomes more even and the tone becomes more focused and clear. IMHO, this approach is not necessary at low volume and becomes essential at high volume.
 
In no way, I am underestimating the importance of EQ.

What I wanted to say is that it's pure luck when your rigs sounds exactly as you wish it to sound without any knob-fiddling.

It's kind of like with women: sometimes your try hard to make the relationship work. And all of sudden, you meet a girl who is just perfect fit for you - no need for the "hard work".

I think what OP describes is "this" kind of situation. He does not speak of any resonances or feedback loops, or other problems to be solved...he just says that the sound does not "please him". And I was saying: may be it's the cabinet, which does not please you...or amp...or...

He just needs to move on and find what pleases him as it is, IMHO...


I see... I tend to try and make things work with existing relationships and gear. As a result I rely on certain tools and processes. I find that when something feels perfect and does not require work, it is just an illusion that will eventually fade. However, if you have found the perfect woman or perfect bass/pickup/amp combination that requires no work....I salute you!

I do agree it's a good idea to throw in the towel when things are totally unworkable. As you say, the problem could be with any component in the OP's system. Perhaps EQ will help and perhaps it won't. I find powerful EQ invaluable with string bass, but lot's of people find it intimidating, confusing, and therefore essentially worthless.

Each person has to find their own path. I have had great success with the path I have followed, but it's not for everyone ;).
 
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I find powerful EQ invaluable with string bass...

I do too. But suggesting 31 band EQ to be used with GK MB200 microamp seems to be an overkill...

I find that when something feels perfect and does not require work, it is just an illusion that will eventually fade. However, if you have found the perfect woman or perfect bass/pickup/amp combination that requires no work....I salute you!

Being a lawyer by profession, I, too, am sceptical about duration of any perfect fit (this relates to women above all).

But knowing that it will fade in the end does not make me enjoy it less...:)
 
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The Fishman Platinum Stage has a 10 Meg input. I have recently learned that the ideal loading for a piezo pickup is generally somewhere between 1-3 Meg, and 10 Meg will cause the pickup to be under damped. The input impedance of your MB200 is 1Meg so try plugging straight into the amp to see if it tightens up the sound any.

I believe EQ can be extremely beneficial, but you need to load the pickup with the proper impedance to buffer the signal before sending it to the EQ. Here's a relatively inexpensive K&K preamp with a 1 Meg input and a three band EQ. K&K Sound Pure Preamp at Gollihur Music - Double Bass, Upright Bass, String Bass Specialists

You could use the K&K to drive an EQ like the Empress ParaEQ that @ddnidd1 mentioned.

When I am amplifying a string bass, I tune it for feedback the same way I tune a PA system. Increase the gain until the bass is almost on the verge feedback and make a mental note of any frequencies that ring out. The next steps of the process varies depending upon if I am using a 31 band graphic or a parametric EQ.

With a 31 band graphic I usually run through and boost all of the frequency bands two at a time. The goal is to identify the hottest 4-5 frequency bands and dip them 6-12dB. Usually I go through three adjacent bands before I decide to make a cut. For example, slowly boost 100Hz and 125Hz then move both bands back to zero. Next, slowly boost 125Hz and 160Hz then move both bands back to zero. If you get the same frequency feeding back between all three bands you know to cut the middle band; but sometimes it doesn't work this way. Sometimes you get a different frequency each time you boost two bands.

After covering three adjacent bands, make a judgment regarding how much headroom before feedback is available and which band is closest to the frequency with the worst problem. You may decide no cut is needed, to cut one frequency 12db, to cut two frequencies 6dB, or to cut three frequencies 3dB. With practice, it will become intuitive.

With a parametric EQ, the process is a bit different. Increase the gain till the bass is on the verge of feedback. Next select a medium, narrow band, apply about 6dB of boost and slowly sweep the frequency control. Keep one hand on the gain control so you can cut it quickly if the feedback gets really bad. Note the frequencies that are most prone to ringing and eliminate them by selecting narrow band filters and dipping them 6-12dB.

If a bunch of frequencies ring close together you can use a wider band filter, but you don't want to cut as much. Try 3-4dB. Same goes for hotspots on the instrument that develop too much sustain as you increase volume, try using a gentle broad band cut.

After dialing in the EQ, it's a good idea to boost the volume to see how much gain before feedback you have built into the system. Turn up and play a bit louder than you expect to for a few minutes to make sure you have plenty of headroom and the tuning works well. Sometimes you might decide to zero out the EQ and try again, especially the first few times you tune a bass this way.

Some of these ideas illustrate that EQ may need adjustment if you drastically change how loud you play. In an effort to minimize the amount of energy the amp puts into the body of the bass, I typically elevate the bottom of my amp to about waist level. But I almost always have full PA support so the amp is only there so I can hear myself.

Hope some of this is helpful.


Thank you so much for the detailed post, you have offered alot of great information to digest. I took your suggestion and removed the Fishman from the chain and immediately liked the tone better. I was able to simply cut some treble and got a tone i liked more than using the Fishman. This is actually what i was doing when i had a Realist on the bass, skipping the preamp. I'm going to roll with this for now until the funds are available for some new gear. Will be interesting to hear how it sounds with a small combo later this week.
 
An Fdeck HPF pre could be a good improvement here. The input impedance spec I found is 10Meg which has been suggested as above optimal by some respected people. But IMHO a variable HPF would be extremely beneficial with such a modest amp as an MB200. With a more powerful amp and speakers that have extended low frequency capabilities, I have had good luck running without an HPF, but it really depends upon the sound you want, so YMMV.

Yes, the "low cut"(HPF?) on the Fishman is the main reason i was adding it to the chain. Fortunately the Rev Solo II pickup does not produce the same strong bass frequencies as the Realist did so seems like the need for the low cut is not as much. I do like how the HPF on the Fdeck is variable, as the Fishman just has 3 frequency choices for the low cut, 40/80/160 Hz
 
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