I always tell my click-zealot friends: try setting a metronome to James Brown/Parliament tracks.
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Explain something to me about drummers
- Thread starter Biggbass
- Start date
I always tell my click-zealot friends: try setting a metronome to James Brown/Parliament tracks.
Or to Rolling Stone tracks. Charlie's so far behind the beat it sounds like he's gonna fall off, and Keef (after some medical help, natch) is so wired to the front of the beat it sounds like it's in another zip code. And that's why the Stones sound like the Stones.
The challenge for bass players is: who are you gonna follow? The drummer who is way behind the beat, or the guitarist who is way in front?
The real masters can ebb and flow and you don't notice, but YES ... when they're dragging into last week, it's maddening
If you rely on visual aids when recording all is lost. The groove is defined by the guy who hears it internally and has the skills to make it happen. Lot's of players cannot find it even when you hand it to them on a platter, bass, drums, whoever.
- Oct 7, 2000
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People often forget that in the old drum machine days there was a built in feature that made the hits just slightly off in order to mimic a human drummer. It sounded better that way for most types of music.
Not sure what you're talking about, but I'm also not sure you know what I'm talking about.
Lining drum beats and bass notes up with graphics on an audio file I promise you suck much of the life out of a performance. I'm not going to argue it, because its next to impossible to prove. Unless I find those recordings which I listened to about 5 times only and then wanted nothing to do with.
I totally hear what you mean...but I actually think the flatness makes it sound pretty interesting...
I am happy to report that out of all the (many) drummers I've played with all these decades, fortunately, only one fits that description.
Goes without saying.
I actually really, really prefer a drummer who can lay back behind the beat a bit without losing it. I actually kind of hate playing with a drummer who can't, I wind up either sounding sloppy or robotic with them. Either way sucks.
Here's an example of doing something because they can, not because it needs doing. I'm often bemused by people's notions that machine time is somehow superior to human time because, as you point out, strict machine time sterilizes the music. I recall, in the 70's-80's when drum machines first became a common thing, Barcus-Berry made a rack effect that took the merciless drum machine time and humanized it by moving the drum machine's clock around like a human player does. I don't remember what it was called but the difference it made in a song's feel was noteworthy.I don't know if you caught the audio clip in the post right before yours, but I fought like a MoFo over that. And as I said, lost. It caused some bad blood between the guitarist/producer and me, but my time was done in that band anyhow. It became one of those 'we're throwing you out I'm quitting anyway' deals
A postscript: Got together with this drummer and did some further tracking. We were able to discard the tracks he didn't like and come up with something that had better energy overall, which he likes the way it was recorded. So I'm much happier with the way this project is going, at least tonight. We will see what tomorrow brings.
I know it's only my opinion but...
I do NOT understand the following.
The DRUMMER MUST be able to play with the click like "there is no click". The drummer must produce the best (with expressiveness) of the drummer's rendition of this/that drum part, drum pattern, drum fill, drum line, etc... WITH A CLICK!
(Disregard my statement if there is no drum part in this/that song.)
One does NOT use some Pro Tools to FIX a drum line of the drummer who could not be superbly-natural while playing with a click.
One does NOT try to fix the drummer's (or anybody else's) lines with some Pro Tools if that musician is NOT comfortable playing with a click, or that "monstrous" click is "stifling" someone's musicality!
Any Groove elements of before/behind the beat renditions should be NATURALLY placed within the click/metronome's FRAME and NOT visible to others!
The bass player should play ALONG the drum line - grooving, breathing, natural, etc..., not just to some click where some sound engineer later records a drum part and starts doing that MAGIC EDITING thing. I know it's POSSIBLE and I know it's DONE almost on the regular basis but, (in my personal opinion) we loose that "WOW" of that particular moment.
In short.
After the drum part is recorded, then it should be VERY FEW spots to edit ONLY!
About the drummer snare's behind/before/right on the beat articulation.
If it's recorded with a click, if the Beat 1 is "RIGHT ON THE MONEY" in every Bar/Measure, if the BL, the Band, the Arranger, the PAYING FOR RECORDING party is satisfied with that drum line, then there is no need to EDIT it!
I do NOT understand the following.
The DRUMMER MUST be able to play with the click like "there is no click". The drummer must produce the best (with expressiveness) of the drummer's rendition of this/that drum part, drum pattern, drum fill, drum line, etc... WITH A CLICK!
(Disregard my statement if there is no drum part in this/that song.)
One does NOT use some Pro Tools to FIX a drum line of the drummer who could not be superbly-natural while playing with a click.
One does NOT try to fix the drummer's (or anybody else's) lines with some Pro Tools if that musician is NOT comfortable playing with a click, or that "monstrous" click is "stifling" someone's musicality!
Any Groove elements of before/behind the beat renditions should be NATURALLY placed within the click/metronome's FRAME and NOT visible to others!
The bass player should play ALONG the drum line - grooving, breathing, natural, etc..., not just to some click where some sound engineer later records a drum part and starts doing that MAGIC EDITING thing. I know it's POSSIBLE and I know it's DONE almost on the regular basis but, (in my personal opinion) we loose that "WOW" of that particular moment.
In short.
After the drum part is recorded, then it should be VERY FEW spots to edit ONLY!
About the drummer snare's behind/before/right on the beat articulation.
If it's recorded with a click, if the Beat 1 is "RIGHT ON THE MONEY" in every Bar/Measure, if the BL, the Band, the Arranger, the PAYING FOR RECORDING party is satisfied with that drum line, then there is no need to EDIT it!
The problem is "Recording Engineers" who don't understand music to this level or regularly work with musicians who don't understand this, and think they need to time align everything to make it "good", mostly because they can.
I've experienced a different situation as of late.
I recorded a six song EP for an artist. The drummer was terrible; so terrible, that the engineer spent most of his time editing the mistakes in post.
I'm a good bassist; I have solid groove and great inherent time. Playing with this donkey made it hard for me to lock into his stuff. Even then, the finished product sounded lifeless and boring.
I recorded a six song EP for an artist. The drummer was terrible; so terrible, that the engineer spent most of his time editing the mistakes in post.
I'm a good bassist; I have solid groove and great inherent time. Playing with this donkey made it hard for me to lock into his stuff. Even then, the finished product sounded lifeless and boring.
He wouldn't happen to be the drummer that was in the last classic>current rock band I was in a few years ago, was he?
You describe him to a T! 
