Double Bass Facing a crossroads and could use some advice

[Gorilla Monsoon]

Hi all - long time TB member on both the DB and EB side. I'm facing a crossroads decision, really not sure where best to post this so landed on Miscellaneous. If Mods have a better suggestion, I'm all ears. I really don't see a category in the DB forums where this neatly fits. It's kinda a cross-post between DB and EB Forums.

For the past few months, I've been dealing with significant pain in my left index finger, making it difficult to play DB without limiting what I can do. I finally saw a hand specialist and after xrays and consultation, he's determined that its arthritis in my knuckle joint. He tried a cortisone (steroid) injection into my knuckle, and while it eased the pain somewhat while playing, it still hurts quite a bit after a session, even after just playing for 30 minutes or so. I'm 69 yrs old, according to my Doc, its not uncommon at this age, and unfortunately there isnt much they can do to treat arthritis. He said that he can give periodic injections, but unlike knees and other parts of the body where joint replacements are a viable option, that's not the case for knuckles. He said that there are some surgical approaches, but they are complicated and have a less than 50% success rate.

I've tried all kinds of other solutions - very light gauge strings, downtuned solos, etc but my sense is that my DB playing days may be over. So I'm trying to decide how to proceed moving forward. I'm playing in two bands regularly now, one is all electric bass and the other was about 50/50 DB and EB (think Wood Bros, Americana, etc). One option is to look for a fretless electric, like a Rob Allen or similar, and "mimic" DB as best as I can. I used to own a Rob Allen and unfortunately sold it years ago since there was no need for it when I could play DB (or at times, an Eminence EUB). The other option is just to fall back to fretted EB only, and make do.

I'm coming to grips with the fact that the physical demands of DB may be enough of a limitation that my DB playing days are over. I'd really appreciate thoughts and perspectives on this from others, maybe there's something that I'm not considering???

Im 65, a retired machinist, used to box, played a ton of ball, and have easily broken every finger at least once. Right hand pinky does that thing that makes my nieces go-“Ewwww”. Im surprised my hands dont bother me like you describe, but i DID have to stop bowling. I own two of Rob’s Mouses…Meece? and highly recommend them. I have a Deep 4 as well, but the short scale is incredibly easy to play. Mine are both fretless and i much prefer the unlined one. I had reservations about going to a short scale, don’t admit to being any good at playing even after 35 years, but there was zero adjustment period going from 35” scale to 30”. My advice would be to stop playing altogether for a considerable time; give your joint(s) some rest. Minimum two months. Ive had over a dozen cortisone shots, sometimes they work, but mostly i found them to provide nothing more than short term relief. The eight pack of Prednisone may help, if you haven’t pursued that avenue. Repetitive motion is the enemy right now, and if you give the angry inflamed joint some time off, it may work. Best of luck.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

I’m getting close to 50 and starting to get carpal tunnel and arthritis issues so I sympathize with you. I’d recommend getting a fretless, fretted is great but it’s a different vibe. You can get close to a DB sound on a fretless if you have the bass set up for it, use flats, and play with DB technique. Close enough for live gigs.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

I'm no doctor or health professional, just going by my own experience with 37 years of Polycystic kidney disease (9+lbs each) which broke ribs, deformed my spine, and several broken bones and other sports injuries accumulated in my youth and my recent development of osteomyelitus in the neck and skull.

See if you can get hold of Celery Seed Extract 3000 and if you're able to take NSAID's then Diclofenac.

 

[Sam Dingle]

you should REALLY consider this bass if you want that upright sound. This plus some flats or black tapewounds sounds incredible

Marco Guitars Bass — Home

Marcustico by Marco Guitars Bass. The marcustico is a acustic fretless bass.

marcoguitarsbass.com

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Post above reminded me to make this, I’m not a doctor but you could try this.
CBD homeopathy is a great alternative to popping ibuprofen all the time. All natural, whole lot nicer on the liver, and no psychotropic effects.

 

[Gorilla Monsoon]

I'm no doctor or health professional, just going by my own experience with 37 years of Polycystic kidney disease (9+lbs each) which broke ribs, deformed my spine, and several broken bones and other sports injuries accumulated in my youth and my recent development of osteomyelitus in the neck and skull.

See if you can get hold of Celery Seed Extract 3000 and if you're able to take NSAID's then Diclofenac.

Voltaren may prove effective, forgot about that, but be careful. It is HIGHLY toxic to birds. I have two birds and used Voltaren on my knee, but washed the beejesus out of my hands before preparing their food.

 

[Jazzdogg]

 

[bherman]

Im 65, a retired machinist, used to box, played a ton of ball, and have easily broken every finger at least once. Right hand pinky does that thing that makes my nieces go-“Ewwww”. Im surprised my hands dont bother me like you describe, but i DID have to stop bowling. I own two of Rob’s Mouses…Meece? and highly recommend them. I have a Deep 4 as well, but the short scale is incredibly easy to play. Mine are both fretless and i much prefer the unlined one. I had reservations about going to a short scale, don’t admit to being any good at playing even after 35 years, but there was zero adjustment period going from 35” scale to 30”. My advice would be to stop playing altogether for a considerable time; give your joint(s) some rest. Minimum two months. Ive had over a dozen cortisone shots, sometimes they work, but mostly i found them to provide nothing more than short term relief. The eight pack of Prednisone may help, if you haven’t pursued that avenue. Repetitive motion is the enemy right now, and if you give the angry inflamed joint some time off, it may work. Best of luck.

Thanks for this post, this is really helpful. Unfortunately the summer is a really busy time around here, and I can’t lay off until we get into October. I will take your advice then and see what happens.

 

[bherman]

you should REALLY consider this bass if you want that upright sound. This plus some flats or black tapewounds sounds incredible

Marco Guitars Bass — Home

Marcustico by Marco Guitars Bass. The marcustico is a acustic fretless bass.

marcoguitarsbass.com

I will contact him and see what the options are forgetting one of these, but I’d be a little bit ready to buy one with the unusual body shape unless I could try it first

 

[Stewie]

The visual of an upright is a powerful thing. But bass is bass. I play upright and fretless P bass interchangeably. You will still be you no matter what you play. ( an electric bass will be happy to ride in a gig bag on your shoulder). The only limitation would be trying to bow an electric bass. I hope the best for you.

 

[bherman]

I'm 68 and having similar issues with my right hand and shoulder and made the decision to get rid of my beautiful fEarless and Audio Kinesis. cabs These were dream cabs and are amazing. They're not heavy for what they do, but I went all carbon fiber yesterday with GR cabinets . Micro heads are thick on the ground and a Toney Franklin Fender does a pretty good emulation of a DB, if your choice is like mine: do it or stop playing. I've been struggling with load in/out for last several months and always worried about permanent injury

I am not happy with narrowing and "downgrading" my gear, but I am glad to be playing at all. These decisions had to be made and actions taken,,,...sort of a half a loaf, better than none deal, you know.

Good luck with your health and continued playing.

Thanks for that comment, thankfully no issues with carrying gear, it’s just the pain when I play. Although I have to admit, I’ve been drooling over the GR stuff.

 

[bherman]

The visual of an upright is a powerful thing. But bass is bass. I play upright and fretless P bass interchangeably. You will still be you no matter what you play. ( an electric bass will be happy to ride in a gig bag on your shoulder). The only limitation would be trying to bow an electric bass. I hope the best for you.

Thanks, yeah, bowing is out for sure, but that was mainly a practice tool for me

 

[Gorilla Monsoon]

For whatever reason, Rob’s Mouses have been available of late. I think there’s one up on the classifieds here now reasonably priced.

 

[KenSmithFan]

I would try acupuncture. I had an elbow issue for about two years that limited my playing. I finally tried acupuncture and although it didn't cure it, it did reduce the pain enough so that I could get into physical therapy. Physical therapy took care of the rest. I'm 66 if that matters.

If that doesn't work I'd try one of those electric upright basses and see how that goes. I wouldn't say they sound exactly like an upright, but they are a hell of a lot closer than any of the suggestions I've ever read on how to get your electric to sound like an upright.

 

[micguy]

I have a slow finger from a wrist injury, and arthritis, (but that's in my back) - I don't know your exact issue, but I have some idea. Arthrtitis is best kept at bay from movement, but not with a lot of force. I would go looking for the lowest acton fretless I could find, and use nice light gauge strings on it. Playing is probably good but a DB, I would guess not - too much force to be good for your joints.

If you want to keep playing, move away from using an instrument that will aggravate things NOW. There may be other things that can help - diet*, etc, but reducing the physical force is almost certainly going to have to be part of a workable solution.

I'm on a keto diet, which is certainly anti-inflammatory (I did it to control blood sugar), but I don't notice it being all that helpful with my arthritis. Maybe it'd have gotten worse without it, but I can't say anything for certain.

 

[Wasnex]

Any idea why upright causes the problem, but bass guitar does not? Perhaps a different instrument or a modification to your technique or set up could help

I understand not wanting to take too much Motrin and Tylenol. I have been taking more and more Motrin lately, but I often do it before a taxing activity rather than after. AFAIK Motrin is better for controlling inflammation, whereas Tylenol works by blocking the pain signals. Tylenol doesn't seem to help me very much any more.

I believe certain foods trigger inflammatory responses in the body. The morning after indulging in one of my triggers, my feet and legs are really stiff and sore when I first get up. Any idea what your triggers could be?

Last spring I to got back into strength training. I also try to ride a bicycle strenuously several times a week. My impression is either the exercise or increased muscle strength has reduced aches and pains. The more exercise I do the more active I can be in a given day. When I started it was a challenge to do one physical activity on a given day. Some days I do as many as four. Today I lifted weights, dug out a section of garden, and went to the store to stock up. I still have energy for a bicycle ride around the neighborhood, but I am planning on doing mountain bike ride with some really step hills tomorrow..

During exercise, my hands were okay pulling 80lbs, but I am pulling 90lbs now. I had to add lifting straps to avoid overtaxing my grip.

Sometimes playing more helps, and sometimes playing less or stopping altogether is best.

 

[Wasnex]

What about topical remedies like diclofenac?

 

[Gorilla Monsoon]

What about topical remedies like diclofenac?

This helped my thumb issue. I slathered the Voltaren on, wrapped it up with Saran Wrap, and wore the brace.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

A few years ago I started seeing a rheumatologist for pain in the big knuckles in both index fingers where they connect to the hand, which mainly came about during and after playing. I explained to her that playing the bass is a big part of what I do for a living. We did imaging, a number of tests, and it’s just garden variety osteoarthritis. Here are my takeaways, for whatever they might be worth:

1) the big thing she assured me was that while normally pain is a warning sign to lay off whatever hurts so you don’t make it worse, that isn’t the case with arthritis. Basically, she said that if the joy of playing was greater than the pain, she thought I should play. I thought of seeing Buster Williams play late in life with his deformed RH fingers pointing the wrong direction and tearing the house down, and this gave me hope.

2) We tried the topicals and they did nothing. Then she had me try Meloxicam, taken orally. It helps a LOT. Most days I don’t even notice the pain any more, and when I do I think of Buster and how his pain must have been a lot worse, and I keep playing.

3) I have adjusted my technique in two ways:
- when speaking to Jorge Roeder at the ISB convention in 2023 in Ann Arbor, he talked about how he basically had to relearn to play with a lighter touch because of injuries and pain. I took the lesson to heart and made some adjustments along those lines. It was silly, really, the adjustment: I had been working on this concept of both hands being perfectly in sync, but it led me to using too much force with my left hand every time I was really digging in with my right. I realized that past a certain point, digging in deeper with the left accomplished nothing positive. So I started working on finding the range of the least amount of force I could use to get a perfect stop, and being aware when I was using more than needed.

- Although it has been a mantra of mine for years, I doubled down on trying to play less from my fingers and more from my arm and core (again, the left hand primarily). This helped a lot, and it involved a lot of slow, thumbless or almost-thumbless daily practice. When all the knuckle has to do is remain static and not give, it’s a totally different physical paradigm than using it to squeeze or press down.

Good luck!

 

[bherman]

Any idea why upright causes the problem, but bass guitar does not? Perhaps a different instrument or a modification to your technique or set up could help

I understand not wanting to take too much Motrin and Tylenol. I have been taking more and more Motrin lately, but I often do it before a taxing activity rather than after. AFAIK Motrin is better for controlling inflammation, whereas Tylenol works by blocking the pain signals. Tylenol doesn't seem to help me very much any more.

I believe certain foods trigger inflammatory responses in the body. The morning after indulging in one of my triggers, my feet and legs are really stiff and sore when I first get up. Any idea what your triggers could be?

Last spring I to got back into strength training. I also try to ride a bicycle strenuously several times a week. My impression is either the exercise or increased muscle strength has reduced aches and pains. The more exercise I do the more active I can be in a given day. When I started it was a challenge to do one physical activity on a given day. Some days I do as many as four. Today I lifted weights, dug out a section of garden, and went to the store to stock up. I still have energy for a bicycle ride around the neighborhood, but I am planning on doing mountain bike ride with some really step hills tomorrow..

During exercise, my hands were okay pulling 80lbs, but I am pulling 90lbs now. I had to add lifting straps to avoid overtaxing my grip.

Sometimes playing more helps, and sometimes playing less or stopping altogether is best.

Good question, I think that its the extra pressure of pushing down DB strings vs EB strings. I do get alot of exercise and am in good shape overall.