Double Bass Facing a crossroads and could use some advice

[bherman]

A few years ago I started seeing a rheumatologist for pain in the big knuckles in both index fingers where they connect to the hand, which mainly came about during and after playing. I explained to her that playing the bass is a big part of what I do for a living. We did imaging, a number of tests, and it’s just just garden variety osteoarthritis. Here are my takeaways, for whatever they might be worth:

1) the big thing she assured me was that while normally pain is a warning sign to lay off whatever hurts so you don’t make it worse, that isn’t the case with arthritis. Basically, she said that if the joy of playing was greater than the pain, she thought I should play. I thought of seeing Buster Williams play late in life with his deformed RH fingers pointing the wrong direction and tearing the house down, and this gave me hope.

2) We tried the topicals and they did nothing. Then she had me try Meloxicam, taken orally. It helps a LOT. Most days I don’t even notice the pain any more, and when I do I think of Buster and how his pain must have been a lot worse, and I keep playing.

3) I have adjusted my technique in two ways:
- when speaking to Jorge Roeder at the ISB convention in 2023 in Ann Arbor, he talked about how he basically had to relearn to play with a lighter touch because of injuries and pain. I took the lesson to heart and made some adjustments along those lines. It was silly, really, the adjustment: I had been working on this concept of both hands being perfectly in sync, but it led me to using too much force with my left hand every time I was really digging in with my right. I realized that past a certain point, digging in deeper with the left accomplished nothing positive. So I started working on finding the range of the least amount of force I could use to get a perfect stop, and being aware when I was using more than needed.

- Although it has been a mantra of mine for years, I doubled down on trying to play less from my fingers and more from my arm and core (again, the left hand primarily). This helped a lot, and it involved a lot of slow, thumbless or almost-thumbless daily practice. When all the knuckle has to do is remain static and not give, it’s a totally different physical paradigm than using is to squeeze or press down.

Good luck!

Thx Chris this is really helpful. I will give this a shot.

 

[Lackey]

Sorry to hear your plight - I've had occasional joint inflammation flareups, starting from my late 20s. Additionally, I had a pretty debilitating and still undiagnosed episode in my early 30s that gave me distal numbness of hands and feet, cramping/ twitching, and muscle weakness. Was very scary and affected my walking and basic hand usage. Had all sorts of scans and blood tests done, doctor's couldn't explain it. I ended up trying ultra high dosage of Vitamin D with some magnesium, and absolutely no calcium in supplements or food (similar to Coimbra protocol).

Within a month I was much better, started to taper down the D intake, and I've never had an episode as bad as that again. Still some random knee / hand / shoulder inflammation, but nothing crazy.

I'm NO DOCTOR, but there appears to be a link between Vitamin D and inflammation. The Coimbra protocol is used in quite a few countries to manage MS.

Hoping you can find a way to improve your situation, best wishes.

 

[logdrum]

Unless you are bowing, get back on electric bass, Or a cello tuned to bass range. I have a 1/2 size bass. Easy to get around and I put some Passione solos tuned down . Not much volume but somehow a joy to play live

 

[logdrum]

I had gout on my foot . I went on a regimen of Cherry juice (concentrate 2 tablespoon) every night. Disappeared after 2 weeks. Can work with athrithis too. And cut back on foods that increase uric acid.

 

[Carl Hillman]

I'm sorry for the problems with your chops. I suspect we'll all deal with some type of impediment if we grow old enough and keep playing long enough.

This may sound flippant, but it's sincere. Since the genre you are working in is roots-oriented...have you considered adding in an alternate instrument, such as a sousaphone or a washtub bass? This would reduce your time on upright and add some different textures to the music.

 

[logdrum]

Any idea why upright causes the problem, but bass guitar does not? Perhaps a different instrument or a modification to your technique or set up could help

I understand not wanting to take too much Motrin and Tylenol. I have been taking more and more Motrin lately, but I often do it before a taxing activity rather than after. AFAIK Motrin is better for controlling inflammation, whereas Tylenol works by blocking the pain signals. Tylenol doesn't seem to help me very much any more.

I believe certain foods trigger inflammatory responses in the body. The morning after indulging in one of my triggers, my feet and legs are really stiff and sore when I first get up. Any idea what your triggers could be?

Last spring I to got back into strength training. I also try to ride a bicycle strenuously several times a week. My impression is either the exercise or increased muscle strength has reduced aches and pains. The more exercise I do the more active I can be in a given day. When I started it was a challenge to do one physical activity on a given day. Some days I do as many as four. Today I lifted weights, dug out a section of garden, and went to the store to stock up. I still have energy for a bicycle ride around the neighborhood, but I am planning on doing mountain bike ride with some really step hills tomorrow..

During exercise, my hands were okay pulling 80lbs, but I am pulling 90lbs now. I had to add lifting straps to avoid overtaxing my grip.

Sometimes playing more helps, and sometimes playing less or stopping altogether is best.

What I've notice is many folks squeeze or press with fingers only. It should always be assisted with arm weight. Switch to thumb position sooner than later. But maybe you are already doing that so I apologize.. Same with the right hand, , assist the plucking with arm motion. So yeah strenuous exercise like get your heart rate at 70 - 86% of Max HR 150 to 200 minutes a week. My adjusted Max HR is now 1785 and I am am upper mid 50's. I started running in this juncture of my life and it's a blast. I run with my 2 dogs. Rowing is very good for upright players

Foods high in purine and uric acid. And sugar for sure and sorry beer can be a trigger and probably the hardest thing to give up

However no shame in abandoning the DB. Music is music.

Bit the greats kept on playing. I saw Milt Hinton when he was 80 probably. I know he stopped playing gigs when he was 86. The oldest living member of Sunra Arkestra is still playing at 100. Yes it is an alto saxophone, but the man can still blow hard.

 

[Anne Millington]

The thing about arthritis pain is that it really can come and go. If you are kind to yourself, and in the words of my physical therapist, don't piss off that joint, you might be pain free in a few months. So try changing your fingerings around so that you lay off the first finger. In the meantime, CBD ointment is a good thing to add to the mix. Ibuprofen is good because it doesn't just mask pain, but actually reduces inflammation. Try icing your finger after a session, and you might have less pain. You might get a second opinion, because joint fusion might be a possibility.

 

[oren]

Sorry to hear about your troubles - aging is not for the faint of heart! Yesterday I was watching this video of Steve Swallow playing his electric bass in a John Scofield trio, and it reminded me that creative and beautiful music can be made on a wide variety of instruments.

 

[funkinbottom]

Bob Groat make a wonderful acoustic bass which is very upright sounding. Here's a couple links.

http://www.groatinstruments.com/_video/JAB_480x270.oggtheora.ogv

 

[el murdoque]

If you are willing to look at your lifelong habits and diet - and change some of that, you could look past the western school medicine.
An Osteopath could help, but someone well versed and experienced in traditional Chinese Medicine (herbs and accupuncture) could be a great help.
The "problem" is that more often than not, they require you to change things in your life.

Something like: Stop eating A, and eat lots of B. Usually A is one of your favorite things while B is "meh".

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I’ll add that diet and exercise are very important. The details of that are rather specific to each person and need to be discovered by that person. For diet, it’s about finding out what makes you better and what does the opposite. I wish there was a better guide than trial and error, but I don’t think there is.

Personally, I’ve found a combination of the anti-inflammation diet (Invalid Link Removed ) and the low FODMAP IBS diet to be really helpful.

With exercise, as with playing, try to avoid gripping exercises. I row twice a week and also do pulldown crunches on a total gym, both of which I use weightlifting straps for to take the pressure off of those joints. This also helps a lot.

 

[Ggaa]

I wonder if a medical CBD cream or oil might help.
My 87 year old Mom has been suffering with knee pain for years. She had one replaced with great success, but isn't going to replace the other. She has been having a hard time with the "normal" knee, but a couple of weeks ago after being diagnosed with arthritis in the knee, her Doc recommended she try CBD cream. She was reluctant but finally decided to try it and she is elated! She says it brings about 8 hours of total relief, so she is able to walk around the neighborhood and go shopping again pain free.
Just a suggestion you may want to research and explore.

Absolutely, try it. My 74 year old sister swears by it.

 

[bherman]

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply! Its always helpful to get perspective from so many others. This is what I love about TalkBass. Again, thanks - I will read and re-read all of your replies!

 

[turf3]

I'd consider reworking common fingerings, moving up the fingerboard and using primarily the middle finger rather than index.

 

[B String]

Hi all - long time TB member on both the DB and EB side. I'm facing a crossroads decision, really not sure where best to post this so landed on Miscellaneous. If Mods have a better suggestion, I'm all ears. I really don't see a category in the DB forums where this neatly fits. It's kinda a cross-post between DB and EB Forums.

For the past few months, I've been dealing with significant pain in my left index finger, making it difficult to play DB without limiting what I can do. I finally saw a hand specialist and after xrays and consultation, he's determined that its arthritis in my knuckle joint. He tried a cortisone (steroid) injection into my knuckle, and while it eased the pain somewhat while playing, it still hurts quite a bit after a session, even after just playing for 30 minutes or so. I'm 69 yrs old, according to my Doc, its not uncommon at this age, and unfortunately there isnt much they can do to treat arthritis. He said that he can give periodic injections, but unlike knees and other parts of the body where joint replacements are a viable option, that's not the case for knuckles. He said that there are some surgical approaches, but they are complicated and have a less than 50% success rate.

I've tried all kinds of other solutions - very light gauge strings, downtuned solos, etc but my sense is that my DB playing days may be over. So I'm trying to decide how to proceed moving forward. I'm playing in two bands regularly now, one is all electric bass and the other was about 50/50 DB and EB (think Wood Bros, Americana, etc). One option is to look for a fretless electric, like a Rob Allen or similar, and "mimic" DB as best as I can. I used to own a Rob Allen and unfortunately sold it years ago since there was no need for it when I could play DB (or at times, an Eminence EUB). The other option is just to fall back to fretted EB only, and make do.

I'm coming to grips with the fact that the physical demands of DB may be enough of a limitation that my DB playing days are over. I'd really appreciate thoughts and perspectives on this from others, maybe there's something that I'm not considering???

Have you gone for a second opinion? Maybe explore Holistic options too. Also VOLTAREN!! I have Arthritics in my knee. I need a replacement. it was painful. I was looking at surgery. After using the Voltaren that is now available over the counter for a week or so three times a day, the pain was much less. I still use it every day. Virtually no pain at all. I think it's certainly worth a try.

 

[bherman]

Have you gone for a second opinion? Maybe explore Holistic options too. Also VOLTAREN!! I have Arthritics in my knee. I need a replacement. it was painful. I was looking at surgery. After using the Voltaren that is now available over the counter for a week or so three times a day, the pain was much less. I still use it every day. Virtually no pain at all. I think it's certainly worth a try.

Thx, I did try Voltaren for a few weeks, didnt make any difference for me.

 

[B String]

Thx, I did try Voltaren for a few weeks, didnt make any difference for me.

So sorry to hear that. It's been amazing for my half knee bone on bone. Hopefully your search will get you some relief.

 

[bherman]

So sorry to hear that. It's been amazing for my half knee bone on bone. Hopefully your search will get you some relief.

Thx - I might try it again now that I've had the cortisone injection. So glad that it helped you, my wife is now 7 months out from a full knee replacement, not an easy process!

 

[Don Hergert]

I'm sure there are as many possible solutions to this as there are people suffering from hand problems here....

I have congenital RA in various forms with both hands. What has helped for me with the double bass -- so far -- is:

1) Using a thumb-on-the-back-of-the-neck left hand posture so the finger joints that don't bend well anymore don't have to bend. Many people here are already doing that anyway, if so good. Wonderful side effect -- much better reach and fewer shifts than with the "baseball" grip.

2) Using low tension strings and as low action as is possible. I like fat synthetic strings, but anything low tension is going to help.

3) Soaking the hands in different gradients of hot-to-cold water. Some people like using hot-wax baths in the same way. I like doing dishes by hand, it provides the soaking plus provides random movement.

4) Using range-of-motion exercises on those finger joints that don't move well, using the other hand to fully manipulate them. Keep those joints viable even if your fingers cannot move much by themselves.

5) I was deficient in zink so I'm taking a zink supplement. I noticed a degree of pain relief quickly after starting this, plus my fingernails and toenails are visibly improved. (With a blood test your doctor can tell if you need this.)

6) Don't stop playing. In fact, play more if possible. I tend to be able to play pain free after about 15 to 20 minutes (probably endorphins kicking in), and after about an hour my joints start working to a larger degree, like 70% instead of 20%. Those joints need movement to stay active, and I need the practice anyway. Oh, and I don't hesitate to change musical arrangements to accommodate joints that aren't working well -- it keeps the music fresh anyway.

We're all going to have to put our instruments down sometime, and it becomes more obvious as more years pass. But, I say play as long as your personal need to play music is greater than the discomfort.

Best of luck with this!!!

 

[Derek Kay]

Arthritis is a degenerative disease, perhaps a lifestyle disease, with differing genetic susceptabilities. Many here show their needs and solutions reflecting that variation. For me it was Zinc. Now I'm avoiding artificials like emulsifiers, and leaning towards cruciferous vegetables. I notice we evolved sucessfuly on a Palaeontolgical diet, although we never lived long enought for long-term diseases to be evolved around. It seems clear we are consuming too much salt/fat/sugar and we can suffer from trace deficiencies. It may be worth checking.

Otherwise a straighter fingerboard, lower action and a softer touch on the bass may help.